Oasis Chorale dancing

[barnhart]

... So my theory is that the thing that seems to be too restrictive in their minds, is the very thing that helped them develop a taste for quality music that lasts for centuries.
I think the fact that they even care about wanting to produce and sing good quality classical and choral music is because a subculture limited their exposure and helped them develop a particular taste.

There is some truth here. The skill of hearing and singing harmony is accumulated over time. I have a Spotify channel for choir and I can quite often tell if the choir is mennonite just by the sound. Growing up around group harmony singing several times a week produces a capacity toward harmony and blending that is unique.

There is a downside I think, all that emphasis on blending in takes the edge off expression in some ways. The sound is more unified but also more moderate and careful.

[seeking-artist]

For those who think that Plain Anabaptists are "bad" for restricting musicians from becoming musicians are they really thinking about what they are promoting?

Here is the spread of musicians/music in the USA currently
20–22% — Rock
19–21% — R&B / Hip-Hop
15–17% — Pop
10–12% — Country
7–9% — Latin
5–7% — Alternative
3–4% — Electronic / Dance
1–2% — Jazz
1–2% — Classical
1–2% — Folk / Americana
<1% — Blues

Are those who believe that Plain Anabaptists are too restrictive really wanting to see this sort of spread in Plain Anabaptist churches? If so, then I don't think they understand the essence of Plain Anabaptist culture, why it still exists, and why they would hate to see the Plain Anabaptist culture cease to exist. (Unless they are like Anthony who doesn't really see much value in it to begin with.)

And lastly,
There are some Plain Anabaptists musicians who wish they could sing in country bands or other major genre's but most who think that Anabaptists hinder musical art expression are folks who want to sing classical/choral. Why is that? Where did the desire for excellence in classical/choral come from? Did it not come from a rich a plain, A cappela hymnody heritage? Had these same people grown up in a normal American home, their interests would likely not be classical/choral excellence but rather excellence in a range of genre's. So my theory is that the thing that seems to be too restrictive in their minds, is the very thing that helped them develop a taste for quality music that lasts for centuries.
I think the fact that they even care about wanting to produce and sing good quality classical and choral music is because a subculture limited their exposure and helped them develop a particular taste.

First of all here, I think your statistics are off/not relevant. (A quick google suggests that 10-15% of professional musicians are classical, for instance; maybe your figures are for listening? If so, it doesn't seem like you have relevant figures for considering pursuing a musical career.) But I think that's largely beside the point. Sure, don't promote rock music if that goes against your convictions. But there is nothing about promoting a particular kind of music education or career that implies you're opening the door to all kinds of other genres. Encouraging more classical training is hardly about to create waves of rock musicians in our churches, for instance.

With that in view, is there a reason to react to Anabaptists who want to develop a career in, say, fine art music? Can an Anabaptist devote a career to teaching music and promoting the music of, say, Bach, Schubert, and Stravinsky? Is the community prepared to support such an endeavor, both through interest in the music-making and some kind of financial support? And if not, what are the principled objections?

[mike]

Can an Anabaptist devote a career to teaching music and promoting the music of, say, Bach, Schubert, and Stravinsky? Is the community prepared to support such an endeavor, both through interest in the music-making and some kind of financial support? And if not, what are the principled objections?

I think a career in teaching and promoting music can be perfectly fine, but should be self-supportive. I can't think of any other career where the community is expected to show support through interest and financial support just for the sake of supporting someone's career choice. If a musical or artistic career cannot support itself, maybe it's not the wisest choice.

If by financial support you mean simply producing a product or service that the community is willing to pay for, then sure. There are very good people in the arts fields in conservative Anabaptist communities who make a living in that way. This is as it should be. I think of people that I know who illustrate books, teach music or art in educational environments, write, and so forth. This is done all the time.

[seeking-artist]

I think a career in teaching and promoting music can be perfectly fine, but should be self-supportive. I can't think of any other career where the community is expected to show support through interest and financial support just for the sake of supporting someone's career choice. If a musical or artistic career cannot support itself, maybe it's not the wisest choice.

If by financial support you mean simply producing a product or service that the community is willing to pay for, then sure. There are very good people in the arts fields in conservative Anabaptist communities who make a living in that way. This is as it should be. I think of people that I know who illustrate books, teach music or art in educational environments, write, and so forth. This is done all the time.

Yes, of course: I simply meant support in the sense that there would be interest in providing funds for services. So if a musician is going to spend a fair amount of time performing, either the community is interested in attending and paying for such concerts, or the musician is paid well enough for other ventures, such as teaching, to afford time to devote to performance. I hope that makes sense. I am looking for thoughts on my specific scenario, though: a performing artist, not just a teacher.

[mike]

I think a career in teaching and promoting music can be perfectly fine, but should be self-supportive. I can't think of any other career where the community is expected to show support through interest and financial support just for the sake of supporting someone's career choice. If a musical or artistic career cannot support itself, maybe it's not the wisest choice.

If by financial support you mean simply producing a product or service that the community is willing to pay for, then sure. There are very good people in the arts fields in conservative Anabaptist communities who make a living in that way. This is as it should be. I think of people that I know who illustrate books, teach music or art in educational environments, write, and so forth. This is done all the time.

Yes, of course: I simply meant support in the sense that there would be interest in providing funds for services. So if a musician is going to spend a fair amount of time performing, either the community is interested in attending and paying for such concerts, or the musician is paid well enough for other ventures, such as teaching, to afford time to devote to performance. I hope that makes sense. I am looking for thoughts on my specific scenario, though: a performing artist, not just a teacher.

Yes, it does. A performing artist is a slightly different question than just studying music generally. I think the demand for those is fairly low in Anabaptists circles, but there are plenty of associated skills that are in demand. Teaching is the most obvious. Choirs who use instrumentalists are more common than they used to be. I don't know if they are paid. Perhaps a key instrumentalist such as a pianist might be in enough demand for a good Anabaptist choir in Lancaster PA or Holmes County OH to want to pay for the service. I don't know.

Paid concerts aren't as common, I for one haven't gone to very many, but there aren't many good ones close to where I live. But if the product is good enough, people might pay. Especially in a world of AI where music is getting really cheap and shallow. Like someone on the forum said recently, music almost has to be live and in person in order to be real music. Writing music is another way to monetize musical talent; I have an old friend who is a trained musician who writes music he is commissioned for, for pay. For weddings, for example.

Producing albums is another way to make some money, but that isn't what it used to be, by a long shot. I don't know what Spotify pays artists, but I suspect an artist has to be very popular in order to make real money in the digital music world.

Music instruction is another way. Teaching a specialized instrument in the right public school is one possibility that would come with typical benefits. Private tutoring works, too. I wish I would have had the opportunity and time to learn to play instruments when I was a child. I learned a little guitar and bit of other stuff when I was older. I respect someone who is willing to invest the time. I just don't know playing an instrument itself is completely self-supportable without spending most of your time doing something else, especially in the Anabaptist world.

Anabaptists are used to just singing and making music for its own sake, and are actually used to paying to participate as opposed to being paid. Because choir tours cost money. It would take a cultural shift for Anabaptist congregations to get used to paying a choir to come sing for them. I guess it could happen.

Conrad Fisher is an example of a sorta-conservative Anabaptist who seems to be making it in the music world, but it's through a whole mix of things that appear to include songwriting, recording and producing for other artists, YouTube ad revenue, having a few songs picked up by big name bands, hosting concerts in his own small town music hall, and giving concerts of his own. This is in the country/bluegrass/folk music world. It looks like a lot of work. Presumably someone could do something like this in other genres such as choral or classical.

[R7ehr]

I think a career in teaching and promoting music can be perfectly fine, but should be self-supportive. I can't think of any other career where the community is expected to show support through interest and financial support just for the sake of supporting someone's career choice. If a musical or artistic career cannot support itself, maybe it's not the wisest choice.

If by financial support you mean simply producing a product or service that the community is willing to pay for, then sure. There are very good people in the arts fields in conservative Anabaptist communities who make a living in that way. This is as it should be. I think of people that I know who illustrate books, teach music or art in educational environments, write, and so forth. This is done all the time.

Yes, of course: I simply meant support in the sense that there would be interest in providing funds for services. So if a musician is going to spend a fair amount of time performing, either the community is interested in attending and paying for such concerts, or the musician is paid well enough for other ventures, such as teaching, to afford time to devote to performance. I hope that makes sense. I am looking for thoughts on my specific scenario, though: a performing artist, not just a teacher.

No, our church has an official position against going to concerts. But at the same time, we have employed part time a talented and knowledgeable member to come to our church school 1-2 times a week to teach music class to the students.

[Neto]

....
Anabaptists are used to just singing and making music for its own sake, and are actually used to paying to participate as opposed to being paid. Because choir tours cost money. It would take a cultural shift for Anabaptist congregations to get used to paying a choir to come sing for them. I guess it could happen.
....

Our congregation always gives a pretty nice gift/donation to visiting singing groups (just like giving an 'honorarium' to a guest speaker), so that's a bit like being paid. Recently someone (someone in our congregation, I think) organized a Brandon Heath concert in our church house, with a ticket price of I think 20 or 25 bucks. I bought what I think was his first CD years ago, but we didn't go to this concert. I'm pretty much not interested in any kind of entertainment music, and even a' cappella groups strike me that way when the arrangements feature the human voice to such an extent that it seems more like a performance than it does spiritually focused songs or hymns. (Like, sort of 'showy'.)

[Ernie]

Are those who believe that Plain Anabaptists are too restrictive really wanting to see this sort of spread in Plain Anabaptist churches? If so, then I don't think they understand the essence of Plain Anabaptist culture, why it still exists, and why they would hate to see the Plain Anabaptist culture cease to exist. (Unless they are like Anthony who doesn't really see much value in it to begin with.)

And lastly,
There are some Plain Anabaptists musicians who wish they could sing in country bands or other major genre's but most who think that Anabaptists hinder musical art expression are folks who want to sing classical/choral. Why is that? Where did the desire for excellence in classical/choral come from? Did it not come from a rich a plain, A cappela hymnody heritage? Had these same people grown up in a normal American home, their interests would likely not be classical/choral excellence but rather excellence in a range of genre's. So my theory is that the thing that seems to be too restrictive in their minds, is the very thing that helped them develop a taste for quality music that lasts for centuries.
I think the fact that they even care about wanting to produce and sing good quality classical and choral music is because a subculture limited their exposure and helped them develop a particular taste.

First of all here, I think your statistics are off/not relevant. (A quick google suggests that 10-15% of professional musicians are classical, for instance; maybe your figures are for listening? If so, it doesn't seem like you have relevant figures for considering pursuing a musical career.) But I think that's largely beside the point. Sure, don't promote rock music if that goes against your convictions. But there is nothing about promoting a particular kind of music education or career that implies you're opening the door to all kinds of other genres. Encouraging more classical training is hardly about to create waves of rock musicians in our churches, for instance.

Here is what I got as far as musicians and primary genre...

20% — Rock / alternative / metal / punk
16% — Pop / adult contemporary
14% — Country / bluegrass
11% — R&B / soul
10% — Classical / orchestral
8% — Hip-hop / rap
6% — Jazz
5% — Folk / traditional / acoustic
3% — Latin
2% — Blues
2% — Electronic / dance
1% — Reggae
2% — Other / world / miscellaneous

But let's go ahead and assume for the sake of discussion that 15% of musicians are classical.

I was addressing two different issues.

#1 is the idea that Plain Anabaptists should not be restricted from pursuing art/music training or they might be forced to leave the church.

#2 is the observation that the far majority of people in Plain Anabaptist churches who want to pursue musical training (or at least those I hear about) are wanting training in classical /choral. If only 15% of musicians are classical in society, why aren't there 20% rock, 16% pop, 14% country, etc. among Plain Anabaptists who are trying to make a case for going to school for those genres?

I’m suggesting that the emphasis on singing hymns, the absence of instrumental music in many churches—and, for some, in other settings as well—along with restrictions on what music people may listen to and what kinds of musical training they may pursue, helps explain why so many Plain Anabaptists interested in formal music education are gravitating toward classical music rather than toward the broad range of genres pursued by the other roughly 85% of American musicians.

Had Plain Anabaptists not required only A Capella singing, and had they not had restrictions on music and dampers on going to school, I'm guessing that we would see among Plain Anabaptists a similar sort of spread of musicians/genres referenced above (and no Plain Anabaptist movement producing the kind of hymns and hymnals and musicians that we are gifted with in the present.)

Now there are Christian groups that promote hymns and classical pieces only (that includes instruments) but...
...These groups are restrictive... and I'm sure there are people among them who think that the church is too restrictive in the genre's it allows or promotes and who feel like they are forced to leave the church in order to pursue the art education that interests them. I think you will always have this anytime a church decides to restrict certain things in order to cultivate certain other things.

With that in view, is there a reason to react to Anabaptists who want to develop a career in, say, fine art music? Can an Anabaptist devote a career to teaching music and promoting the music of, say, Bach, Schubert, and Stravinsky? Is the community prepared to support such an endeavor, both through interest in the music-making and some kind of financial support? And if not, what are the principled objections?

I indirectly answered that somewhat above. If Plain Anabaptists would do this, there would be a trade off. Some here on MN would likely be fine with the trade off, others not.

[Neto]

Re: choruses, hymns, or music written by 'Plain people":

From what I've observed, there are very few composers among us. Some do arrangements of existing hymns, etc. A couple years ago our pastor did a special service, where people could sing a song, do a recitation (a poem, short discourse, or Scripture by memory), etc. I went up and sang a couple of songs in different languages of Brazil (and maybe in Portuguese as well - I don't remember now). But here's my point -I did this in order to give a 'call' for missionary work. You can use most any type of skill in mission work, but since we have lots of musicians in our congregation, I gave a push for ethnomusicologists. I asked how many had written a song or music themselves. No one. Not a single person, even with many of those present who lead or participate in the 'worship teams' that perform every Sunday morning. I was totally surprised. I'm not even a musician, but I put a Bible verse in Cheyenne to the traditional music style, as well as having made up Christian songs in Banawa. I have never taken any courses in ethnomusicology, even though you can even do a 4 year degree program in that field. And I don't think I'm a very good singer, either. I thought that my appeal would be speaking directly to people who might have even been wondering 'Can I use this skill to server God, to help bring the Gospel of Jesus to those who have never heard it, or who haven't listened, and WOULD listen if it was presented in their own music style?'

Come on brothers & sisters. Write lyrics that represent our understanding of what God desires of us, that express our understanding of true and right doctrine, of blessed obedience.

[EDIT: OOPS. I guess I'm not suppose to ask people to do something here.]

[Ernie]

Conrad Fisher is an example of a sorta-conservative Anabaptist who seems to be making it in the music world, but it's through a whole mix of things that appear to include songwriting, recording and producing for other artists, YouTube ad revenue, having a few songs picked up by big name bands, hosting concerts in his own small town music hall, and giving concerts of his own. This is in the country/bluegrass/folk music world. It looks like a lot of work. Presumably someone could do something like this in other genres such as choral or classical.

I stopped by his "church" the other day and visited with him. Quite interesting business model. He is definitely not your average Anabaptist. I wouldn't put him in the Plain category at all. He did recently purchase about 100 Christian Hymnals (the last thing he thought he would ever do) for the song book racks in his church. He uses them for community hymn sings/guitar performances that he organizes.
He explained that the country singers that he hopes to attract to his venue are known for having big egos (e.g. "Yeah, we'll come sing for you all" and then once the concert is over, they will head directly for their bus rather than talk to the common folk). This is something that just goes with the territory. So he would need to accommodate some of these habits and lifestyles the best he could in order to get them to come.
Even if they agreed to come for $50K instead of 500K, he figures that ticket sales might only cover about half the bill. The rest of the revenue would need to come from other sources.