I think this goes a long way to explain what I think of as Anabaptist ambivalence toward art. It's possibly a reaction to the excesses of the church state art projects, possibly a hyper protestant theological move to shift the focus and application of scripture internally (in the heart) and possibly an artifact of a culture that survived multiple dislocations where it made sense to focus more on the necessary than the aspirational.Szdfan wrote:... Art in Old Order and Conservative groups — like quilting — is both aesthetic and useful. Art that is artistic or aesthetic without a “useful” purpose has been traditionally frowned upon.
Watercolor painting and artistic expression
Re: Watercolor painting and artistic expression
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Re: Watercolor painting and artistic expression
Okay, but isn’t artistic expression in general frowned upon or seen with suspicion except for a few approved forms? Would there be support for someone painting large, abstract canvases in acrylic?
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"Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless."
-- Isaiah 10:1-2
-- Isaiah 10:1-2
Re: Watercolor painting and artistic expression
One wonders how many of you have been to Behalt.
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Re: Watercolor painting and artistic expression
I doubt it. See my comments about expediency and edification.Szdfan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2026 1:20 pmOkay, but isn’t artistic expression in general frowned upon or seen with suspicion except for a few approved forms? Would there be support for someone painting large, abstract canvases in acrylic?
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A wee little man can’t say, I’m sorry. A big man owns his mistakes and apologizes.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
Re: Watercolor painting and artistic expression
While I agree that there is much ambivalence toward art, I still think there is appreciation for it in small amounts.barnhart wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2026 1:17 pmI think this goes a long way to explain what I think of as Anabaptist ambivalence toward art. It's possibly a reaction to the excesses of the church state art projects, possibly a hyper protestant theological move to shift the focus and application of scripture internally (in the heart) and possibly an artifact of a culture that survived multiple dislocations where it made sense to focus more on the necessary than the aspirational.Szdfan wrote:... Art in Old Order and Conservative groups — like quilting — is both aesthetic and useful. Art that is artistic or aesthetic without a “useful” purpose has been traditionally frowned upon.
I think that rural, low income America has a lot of ambivalence toward art as well. Time and energy is put into other things. But here and there you see a non-Anabaptist lady that has a beautiful flowerbed, etc. So I don't think it is just Anabaptists.
It is the educated (at least to a greater percentage) who make a big deal about art.
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A wee little man can’t say, I’m sorry. A big man owns his mistakes and apologizes.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
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ohio jones
- Posts: 2349
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- Affiliation: Rosedale Network
Re: Watercolor painting and artistic expression
Heinz Gaugel was not a Plain Anabaptist, though. It may be easier to appreciate an Anabaptist-adjacent artist like Rembrandt or a non-Anabaptist artist like Picasso or Caravaggio than to support one of our own.
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Re: Watercolor painting and artistic expression
I visited a museum recently that is exclusively about early American coverlets. Mostly sewn by male weavers, these were incredible works of art that were functional while also very artistic. Some of the plans/designs used for these are also on display and are incredibly complex.Ernie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2026 1:43 pmWhile I agree that there is much ambivalence toward art, I still think there is appreciation for it in small amounts.barnhart wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2026 1:17 pmI think this goes a long way to explain what I think of as Anabaptist ambivalence toward art. It's possibly a reaction to the excesses of the church state art projects, possibly a hyper protestant theological move to shift the focus and application of scripture internally (in the heart) and possibly an artifact of a culture that survived multiple dislocations where it made sense to focus more on the necessary than the aspirational.Szdfan wrote:... Art in Old Order and Conservative groups — like quilting — is both aesthetic and useful. Art that is artistic or aesthetic without a “useful” purpose has been traditionally frowned upon.
I think that rural, low income America has a lot of ambivalence toward art as well. Time and energy is put into other things. But here and there you see a non-Anabaptist lady that has a beautiful flowerbed, etc. So I don't think it is just Anabaptists.
It is the educated (at least to a greater percentage) who make a big deal about art.
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Re: Watercolor painting and artistic expression
I wouldn't suggest it's isolated to Anabaptists, it's likely a phenomenon shared by other groups like Quakers, Puritans and independent fundamentalist Baptist.Ernie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2026 1:43 pmWhile I agree that there is much ambivalence toward art, I still think there is appreciation for it in small amounts.barnhart wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2026 1:17 pmI think this goes a long way to explain what I think of as Anabaptist ambivalence toward art. It's possibly a reaction to the excesses of the church state art projects, possibly a hyper protestant theological move to shift the focus and application of scripture internally (in the heart) and possibly an artifact of a culture that survived multiple dislocations where it made sense to focus more on the necessary than the aspirational.Szdfan wrote:... Art in Old Order and Conservative groups — like quilting — is both aesthetic and useful. Art that is artistic or aesthetic without a “useful” purpose has been traditionally frowned upon.
I think that rural, low income America has a lot of ambivalence toward art as well. Time and energy is put into other things. But here and there you see a non-Anabaptist lady that has a beautiful flowerbed, etc. So I don't think it is just Anabaptists.
It is the educated (at least to a greater percentage) who make a big deal about art.
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ohio jones
- Posts: 2349
- Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2024 6:03 pm
- Affiliation: Rosedale Network
Re: Watercolor painting and artistic expression
It's possible for even the truly elite to set aside elitist attitudes at times. Another director and composer (I assume it's not the same one) was asked by an elderly man in the choir, a well-known songleader in his community, whether it would be possible to include a bit of Gaither music in the program at some point rather than all highbrow compositions. The director allowed it might not be entirely out of the question. The next year he had us sing a rather complex yet down-to-earth arrangement of a classic by -- not Gaither, but even more surprisingly, Albert E. Brumley.mike wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2026 1:08 pmThis reminds me of what a very good musician and choral director (well-known these days in Anabaptist musical circles) said when asked what he thought of fiddle playing. "That's not music." That right there is an example of an elitist attitude in my view.ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2026 12:23 pmThat actually depends on what the professionals are saying. A person isn't necessarily better qualified to answer the question of "what is good music" just because he is a professional musician. Just as a person isn't necessarily better qualified to speak to moral issues related to end of life care just because he is a doctor.joshuabgood wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2026 11:49 am We do need this. And we need the "others in the community" to be willing to actually listen to the doctors in their midst, the professional musicians, and others who have highly developed skill. What sometimes happens is a sort of "pooing pooing" of these folks.
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Re: Watercolor painting and artistic expression
I'm suggesting it applies to many rural people, including those who don't have much religion. Making an income, having a good time with family and friends, and enjoying oneself are priorities. Fine arts are not.barnhart wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2026 2:10 pmI wouldn't suggest it's isolated to Anabaptists, it's likely a phenomenon shared by other groups like Quakers, Puritans and independent fundamentalist Baptist.Ernie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2026 1:43 pmWhile I agree that there is much ambivalence toward art, I still think there is appreciation for it in small amounts.barnhart wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2026 1:17 pm
I think this goes a long way to explain what I think of as Anabaptist ambivalence toward art. It's possibly a reaction to the excesses of the church state art projects, possibly a hyper protestant theological move to shift the focus and application of scripture internally (in the heart) and possibly an artifact of a culture that survived multiple dislocations where it made sense to focus more on the necessary than the aspirational.
I think that rural, low income America has a lot of ambivalence toward art as well. Time and energy is put into other things. But here and there you see a non-Anabaptist lady that has a beautiful flowerbed, etc. So I don't think it is just Anabaptists.
It is the educated (at least to a greater percentage) who make a big deal about art.
There are exceptions of course, just like there are in Plain Anabaptist communities.
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A wee little man can’t say, I’m sorry. A big man owns his mistakes and apologizes.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.