"Mennonite Entrepeneurs" and related topics

[barnhart]

Growing up in an ultra-conservative/Old Order hybrid culture, big business with say 25-50 employees was considered risky spiritually. It was believed that it was hard to be a deeply spiritual person if one was caught up in that level of entanglement with the world and handling large sums of money. (They didn't believe that if a person had a small business that he was automatically a spiritual person. They realized that there were more things that make a spiritual person.)
When I began circulating in the moderate-conservative constituency 25 years ago (I skipped a tour through the intermediate-conservative constituency) I learned that big business was something to celebrate rather than something that should be questioned. In the last 25 years I have seen the effects on the families of big businessmen that my church warned about growing up. But I have also met a few big businessmen who are very spiritual people, and who use their businesses as platforms for promoting the kingdom of God. Indeed they are rare, which I think confirms Jesus statement that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
What I think happens, though, is that because there does seem to be a few rich spiritual people, many people (who can't really handles riches) think they can be both rich and spiritual also. But they don't have enough self-awareness to realize what riches will do to them and their posterity.

I think the part where you say that it is hard to be deeply spiritual with that level of entanglement with the world is such a good point that it kind of changes my views a little bit on some things. I wonder, then, if a high-tech career is actually more reconciliable with Mennonitism than entrepreneurship is. But I am still learning.

I see your logic.

[JohnH]

I think the part where you say that it is hard to be deeply spiritual with that level of entanglement with the world is such a good point that it kind of changes my views a little bit on some things. I wonder, then, if a high-tech career is actually more reconciliable with Mennonitism than entrepreneurship is. But I am still learning.

Both are not really compatible, primarily because of the family-formation angle I mentioned earlier. Lifestyles that produce small family sizes lead to shrinking churches that eventually close their doors.

The exception is if they can find some other group of traditionalists and woo enough of their members over, but then they've enshrined themselves as a transitional church whose primary function is to help people become less traditional. Such a church also is hostile to seekers like you and me, since we have no way to become less "traditional".

I describe my views and the difference between Libertarianism and Classical Liberalism so to give the reader a better picture of why I call myself a firm believer in capitalism.

One thing I would point out is that classical liberalism is in direct conflict with Anabaptism. As an Anabaptist we believe in just one baptism, one Lord, and we believe Jesus said what he did and we have to follow it and that there is only one narrow way. That's fundamentally at conflict with the principles of modernism.

Some Anabaptists have decided to accept classical liberalism and cease evangelism and are content to just settle into being an ethnic enclave. I consider that part of abandoning the faith, though, just like excessive wealth, or embracing entrepeneurship, etc. are.

For a seeker in a "high tech" career, I would caution against trying to change careers too quickly. Most other types of jobs and businesses don't produce large amounts of income with relatively little work. It could be a big adjustment to try to shift, and many other Anabaptists have a head start since they've been working in a family business since they could hold a harmer, and full time since they were 14. (Most Anabaptists reject higher education, such as 9-12th grade education, which ties in to family formation and sustainable family sizes.)

[mmhg]

One thing I would point out is that classical liberalism is in direct conflict with Anabaptism. As an Anabaptist we believe in just one baptism, one Lord, and we believe Jesus said what he did and we have to follow it and that there is only one narrow way. That's fundamentally at conflict with the principles of modernism.

Some Anabaptists have decided to accept classical liberalism and cease evangelism and are content to just settle into being an ethnic enclave. I consider that part of abandoning the faith, though, just like excessive wealth, or embracing entrepeneurship, etc. are.

For a seeker in a "high tech" career, I would caution against trying to change careers too quickly. Most other types of jobs and businesses don't produce large amounts of income with relatively little work. It could be a big adjustment to try to shift, and many other Anabaptists have a head start since they've been working in a family business since they could hold a harmer, and full time since they were 14. (Most Anabaptists reject higher education, such as 9-12th grade education, which ties in to family formation and sustainable family sizes.)

I suppose I believe in classical liberalism for greater society, but Anabaptist-style communitarianism for insular, rural communities and villages. I believe greater society and rural communities should be separate entities.

I think you may have saved me with that cautionary word. The career I'd been seeking (but having doubts about) is something like red teaming in cybersecurity, possibly red teaming AI models. For those who don't know: cybersecurity has two branches, theoretical and applied, distinguished by the fact that nobody really has time to work both at once. Applied cybersecurity then has its own taxonomy—offensive, defensive—with offensive split into red teaming and pen testing. (Defensive would be like security analyst, incident responder, security engineering, and blue teaming). A red teamer's job is to simulate a real attack in order to see how quickly, and by what methodology, a defense system responds. And pen testers are tasked with figuring out effective ways to hack those systems at the technical scope. I'd had doubts about this career path because red teamers generally have to work for a large modern company, like definitionally they simulate real world attacks and so they can't just work for a small private business. But because of your advice, I think I'll stay on track with red teaming, since there are unspoken risks and liabilities tied to switching careers too quickly. Thank you again!!

[JohnH]

I suppose I believe in classical liberalism for greater society, but Anabaptist-style communitarianism for insular, rural communities and villages. I believe greater society and rural communities should be separate entities.

That's very interesting and a good idea for its own thread.

I think you may have saved me with that cautionary word. The career I'd been seeking (but having doubts about) is something like red teaming in cybersecurity, possibly red teaming AI models. For those who don't know: cybersecurity has two branches, theoretical and applied, distinguished by the fact that nobody really has time to work both at once. Applied cybersecurity then has its own taxonomy—offensive, defensive—with offensive split into red teaming and pen testing. (Defensive would be like security analyst, incident responder, security engineering, and blue teaming). A red teamer's job is to simulate a real attack in order to see how quickly, and by what methodology, a defense system responds. And pen testers are tasked with figuring out effective ways to hack those systems at the technical scope. I'd had doubts about this career path because red teamers generally have to work for a large modern company, like definitionally they simulate real world attacks and so they can't just work for a small private business. But because of your advice, I think I'll stay on track with red teaming, since there are unspoken risks and liabilities tied to switching careers too quickly. Thank you again!!

Well, as someone who was in cybersecurity for quite some time, I view it as a field in collapse (it started with the Crowdstrike incident when lots of businesse decided spending billions on it was not a good use of money), but I would say applied is going to be even less of a career track in the era of AI. In addition, "red teaming" is an absurdly competitive field; it's not one you can just get into because you want to, although maybe you already have a lot of connections and credentials in this area. It is certainly not something one goes to school for to learn.

The most important skillset to have would be to be skilled in using AI tools in particular understanding how they work, how to train new models (e.g. you would need to both know what jev is and also understand why it is useful and already be adept at using it, even though it was announced 10 days ago).

If you'd like to PM me offline I'd be glad to talk to you more about this.

[cmbl]

For a seeker in a "high tech" career, I would caution against trying to change careers too quickly. Most other types of jobs and businesses don't produce large amounts of income with relatively little work. It could be a big adjustment to try to shift, and many other Anabaptists have a head start since they've been working in a family business since they could hold a harmer, and full time since they were 14. (Most Anabaptists reject higher education, such as 9-12th grade education, which ties in to family formation and sustainable family sizes.)

Indeed. I am glad that I have stuck with my office job in a technical field.

[cmbl]

For a seeker in a "high tech" career, I would caution against trying to change careers too quickly. Most other types of jobs and businesses don't produce large amounts of income with relatively little work. It could be a big adjustment to try to shift, and many other Anabaptists have a head start since they've been working in a family business since they could hold a harmer, and full time since they were 14. (Most Anabaptists reject higher education, such as 9-12th grade education, which ties in to family formation and sustainable family sizes.)

Indeed. I am glad that I have stuck with my office job in a technical field.

Sorry to quote myself...but continuing this thought, how do people like us get the next generation, especially sons, ready to participate in the Mennonite economy?

[the-real-steve]

Didn't read this entire thread word for word, at least not beyond the OP.

I often think of the various industries in my area that have Anabaptist roots: Paul B. Zimmerman, Martin Appliance, Ebling's Service Plus, Dutch Valley Foods, John F, Martin Meats, Shank Door, Dutch Way, etc. I'm sure I am missing a bunch.

All started as a family operation. Grew to have multiple locations, most with locations in other states. Some of these are on the second, third and even fourth generation of family leadership. It may have went from a handful of employees to perhaps dozens or even hundreds.

One conclusion I have come to is, for that growth to happen, there had to be compromises in morals and ethics. And of course if senior management would be questioned on such things, one is most likely to get a canned response on how the company has "evolved" or "progressed."

I tend to think for an enterprise to grow, what one generation managed to hold the line on, the next generation blurred and it became a grey area.

Just my $2. I'm sure I will think of more later.

[mike]

One conclusion I have come to is, for that growth to happen, there had to be compromises in morals and ethics.

Could you say more about this?

[R7ehr]

One conclusion I have come to is, for that growth to happen, there had to be compromises in morals and ethics.

Could you say more about this?

I would like to hear more too.

[the-real-steve]

One conclusion I have come to is, for that growth to happen, there had to be compromises in morals and ethics.

Could you say more about this?

I would like to hear more too.

Working on a Sunday for starters.

Loosening up restrictions (for employees) on certain types of images: tattoos, piercings, mode of dress, etc.

Bringing in outsiders for senior leadership positions that do not share Christian values. But hey, they got them "I am smart papers!"

Loosening up standards on employee behavior "because its getting hard to hire people who want to work."

I could go on.