Szd:
temporal1 wrote:
you may take it or leave it.
I was actually a fan of Cosby.
I haven't heard or watched anything from him since the allegations and the trial, but I enjoyed his recordings and I think that the "Cosby Show" is landmark and important television. I think I may have even read one of his books in high school. We made jigglers as a kid because of his TV commercials for jello.
However, one of the lines for me is that I can't take any of his moralizing seriously.
He raped an average of 1-2 women a year for over 40 years. He's not someone to look up to.
i see. you had a personal investment in him, i did not.
i saw him as an entertainer, knew he was very popular, but, i’m often neutral on popular figures, esp hollywood types. throughout history, entertainers have largely been considered the dregs of society, enjoyable, but not ones to idolize or hope your children would socialize with or marry.
not to emulate. “good”/decent/respectable families would not willingly send their young ones to hollywood, known for immorality.
in the 20th Century, western culture, esp hollywood, allowed entertainers (and athletes) to become very wealthy, wealth can buy a lot of credibility, and influence.
the word, “idol,” was a whispered word to be feared when i was young. over my lifetime, it has been normalized to the point young people have no idea what it means, in scriptural context.
TV shows make regular use of it.
so, no. i thought Bill Cosby was ok. far from a fan. just another entertainer.
i viewed Oprah. i was not a fan, or idol worshiper, she still has many.
the “warning speech” he gave was long before his personal life was revealed.
it was serious, to the point, not lengthy.
frankly, it was the FIRST time he got my attention. he was not being goofy or frivolous.
by all accounts, it was an unusual TV moment.
he was sharing insights to worlds and thinking i had no access to, and, i was glad to know it existed.
the mainstream covers what they choose, and, what they choose is a narrow slice of reality.
evenso, i was not interested in following him. i’m not an idol-seeking kinda person.
that’s doomed to disappointment and failure (hollywood never bothers to mention).
but, i was interested to know more about what these folks he spoke of were doing.
to repeat, possibly similar to folks i enjoy reading from on this forum, i.e., real life people “organically” (not politically) attempting to leave the world a better place.
(i think) a lot of black+white thinking results from failed idol worship.
understandably, once we feel betrayed, we feel angry and dirty. we want to “be rid of it.”
learning Bill Cosby lived a ruinous life in hollywood repulses me, but doesn’t surprise me.
what surprised me was the glimpse of something more beneath the surface.
he relayed a sense of urgency about
fatherless homes i’d not heard before.
i was sad when his son was murdered. this also happened before his sins/crimes were revealed.
.. Presently, i speak knowing he has stood trial and is incarcerated for his crimes.
i’m not attempting to question or tamper with any of that. i don’t want my family anywhere near hollywood, never did. i’m sad our culture does so much idol worship of such a place.
Szd:
i mourn how sin comes at such a high price. when he could have done so much good, sin ruined it.
i believe part of him wanted to do good. sin cost him, and known and unknown others.
sin always has a price. there is a ripple effect of damage, the price is not confined to the sinner.
I do believe in the reality of sin, but I want to be careful not to diminish the impact of what he did.
I get uncomfortable with using the phrase "sin" because it is an equalizer (i.e. we all sin) and I think it can diminish the gravity of what someone has done. Here is a rich, powerful, influential and well-loved person who raped at least sixty women. This kind of serial rapist behavior is sociopathic and I don't want to diminish that.
That's not to say that Cosby didn't have good intentions in some areas -- people are complicated -- but I do think his negative actions caused more damage than his good intentions and actions.
i think this is well addressed in the JMast/CAM threads. i did not foresee this important topic of
fatherless homes derailing over it.
i understand your point, it’s also important, but, because some have failed with it and exploited it does not make it a universal failure. i’m not sure how to word things to satisfy every potential scenario.
Szd:
you are mistaken to think i’m ignoring or glorifying what he did.
the loss of what he might have done is worth thinking over.
after all. each of us must decide which choices we will make, and weigh the costs.
every single day.
Ok.
Szd:
do you think MLK JR should be deposed as a leader due to his carnal sins?
he was a pastor, not just a community or political leader.
Bill Cosby was an entertainer, a field known throughout history as being morally corrupt.
I'm going to give you a not very satisfying answer (at least not satisfying to me), but it's the best answer I have right now.
The allegations revealed by David Garrow have colored my perception and understanding of King.
He is still someone I admire, but I have backed away from using his writings and speeches as inspiration from my own life.
I don't hold up King as an example or inspiration for my daughters.
I am deeply troubled by all of this.
At the same time, I'm not yet prepared to completely dump King either. Garrow is a very legitimate source, but at the same time, I'm cautious about accepting at face value FBI documents about Civil Rights leaders. After all, the FBI famously wrote a fake letter to King with the hope that it would lead him to commit suicide.
The problem with the Garrow allegations is that he only had access to the reports and notes from these surveillance tapes. The original tapes are under seal until 2027 and therefore, there is nothing at this point to validate these notes to. I think that until these tapes are released and historians can do some serious work analyzing them, then I'm going to be in this ambiguous space about it.
Like I said, not satisfying, but I guess we can discuss it again in seven years.
“me, too.”
again, the idol worship factor with MLK JR troubles me.
in his case, an official, nation-wide, taught in gov schools, taxpayer-funded idol worship.
imho, our youthful, youth-adoring culture took a wrong turn at the idol worship corner.
i do wonder, if he could revisit today, what on earth would he make of all that’s transpired since his death? some positives, lots of negatives, lots of exploiting his name and life (for personal gain).
i would hope, being a pastor, he would soundly reject idol worship.