Josh wrote:KingdomBuilder wrote:Josh wrote:Where in scripture is the idea of an invisible church you "join" as part of baptism?
I don't understand what you're saying here
Well, the picture in scripture is that people were baptised when they joined the local church they were part of, which is still how conservative Anabaptists generally do this, and how all Old Order type of people do it. (I don't know if any Old Order people accept converts without baptism, but I doubt it.)
A more recent concept is that there is an "invisible church" of true, regenerate believers residing both inside and outside of the "visible church" gathered in congregations. The approach to baptism that Reformed & Baptist theology takes and those derived from that is that baptism baptises you into this invisible, global church, and thus never needs to be repeated again as long as you sincerely believed in Christianity when you were baptised.
I think that can be an acceptable set of traditions but I don't think by any means it's the only valid set of traditions. A great weakness I see in this viewpoint is that since joining a church has nothing to do with becoming a Christian or baptism, a focus ends up on making sure the baptism itself is right.
How much water? How cold? How deep in the water?
What direction do you go into the water? Forward? Backward? Both?
How many times in the water? Once? Thrice? Four times?
In what name or names are you baptised?
I think those are unimportant details. I think the significant part of baptism is that it's symbolic of starting the Christian life, which in my opinion needs to be something that happens with other Christian believers, with grace, of course, for those who don't have any Christian believers nearby them to commune with.
So, Josh, what you are saying is that to be baptized you have to join a denomination and that is the only thing that makes it legitimate?
I doubt that Philip said that to the Ethiopian eunuch. We are baptized into the Body of Christ, which is not limited to any local congregation, and therefore is "invisible" in the sense that it doesn't fit into one building.
Scripture says that we are baptized into Christ [himself], which doesn't preclude some local congregation.
Rom_6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Gal_3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
We weren't baptized into the church's death were we? We haven't put on the congregation have we? (Sometimes I think we are put upon by a congregation.
The modern Mennonite concept of baptism reflecting joining the local congregation is foreign to scripture as much as the unfortunate concept of making ourselves worthy to take communion is.
The Body of Christ is not limited to any local congregation.