Performing Arts, Big Business, Pride, Worldliness

[seeking-artist]

I think the introduction of Maslow's hierarchy was a red herring.

How so?

Was anyone arguing that the arts should be enjoyed before basic care needs are met? I think the debate was surrounding whether certain occupations/pursuit are inherently more worthwhile than others. Maslow's hierarchy does not attempt to rank the needs in terms of ultimate worth, but rather states that some needs must be met before others can reasonably be attained. I don't think there is anything is Maslow's hierarchy that suggests that some forms of employment are more worthy than others, which if I'm not mistaken, was the context of the conversation when it was introduced.

[mike]

Music, in terms of products or services that you pay for, is without question a luxury. It's one of those things that is first to go when you are short on money. Depending on people buying your musical good or service is a little like depending on people to buy your luxury cabinets or crafts and trinkets or expensive foods. These things are without question elective purchases. I think Anabaptists have probably not historically been in these fields so much. It could be for reasons of pride and worldliness or principles of economy or wise use of money, both for oneself and for ones customers.

[seeking-artist]

Music, in terms of products or services that you pay for, is without question a luxury. It's one of those things that is first to go when you are short on money.

Really? There are many who love music, myself included, who prioritize having it as part of their lives even when the budget is tight. If "luxury" is being defined as anything not necessary for survival, that includes a whole host of things, including using the internet to access MennoNet.

I don't know the people I'm conversing with in real life, so it's possible you are indeed living radically different lives from almost everything I know in an Anabaptist context. Do you all live in mud huts on small, barren plots of land? Are all of your vehicles, if you have any, at least fifteen years old? Do you subsist on bread and potatoes? Do you have bans on hunting and all sports? Have you never gone on a vacation, unless cheaply, to visit relatives?

I'm not trying to be facetious here. But while I can certainly see that for many, any money spent on music is one of the first things to go when tight, if we're being consistent, at this point everyone is still drowning in luxury items. Obviously if the above paragraph matches anyone on this site, that changes the conversation significantly, but if not, I'm not following how there can be a principled objection to any performing arts because it is a "luxury."

[JohnH]

Really? There are many who love music, myself included, who prioritize having it as part of their lives even when the budget is tight. If "luxury" is being defined as anything not necessary for survival, that includes a whole host of things, including using the internet to access MennoNet.

I don't know the people I'm conversing with in real life, so it's possible you are indeed living radically different lives from almost everything I know in an Anabaptist context. Do you all live in mud huts on small, barren plots of land?

Compared to the huts many people live in, my 880 sq ft house is quite luxurious. My plot of land is lush and verdant, too, even though I accomplish a lot less with it than many third world farmers do with poorer soil and less acreage.

With that said, music is something that, much like love, a husband or wife, church services, baptism, etc. should be "free", or at least not cost anything. I can sing songs with my family at family devotions each evening without cost. I can sing silly songs with my children without spending any money, either.

A musician can produce beautiful music with a quite simple instrument that he might have picked up at a thrift store or even have gotten for free.

Are all of your vehicles, if you have any, at least fifteen years old?

All of my vehicles are at least 15 years old.

Do you subsist on bread and potatoes?

No, and compared to many, we subsist quite well, although the last 3 months of mostly eating WIC food is not something I would prefer to do long term. (No bread or potatoes, but plenty of beans.)

Do you have bans on hunting and all sports? Have you never gone on a vacation, unless cheaply, to visit relatives?

Well, I don't hunt, but I feel hunting can often have a positive purpose - helping control the population. I think extravagant money spent on hunting is questionable. One can hunt with just a hunting licence and an old fashioned used rifle that can be bought cheaply, and then the meat can feed a family and also be shared with those in need.

I think it's fine for young people to enjoy hitting a ball around, playing some volleyball, etc. but would have concerns about large sums of money being spent on playing or spectating sports.

I don't think extravagant vacations build the kingdom of heaven. Our last trip to see my wife's family we did carefully using points, which can be a very economical way to have a family vacation - sometimes for free, even, by carefully evaluating credit-card offers.

I'm not trying to be facetious here. But while I can certainly see that for many, any money spent on music is one of the first things to go when tight, if we're being consistent, at this point everyone is still drowning in luxury items. Obviously if the above paragraph matches anyone on this site, that changes the conversation significantly, but if not, I'm not following how there can be a principled objection to any performing arts because it is a "luxury."

I think not all arts are luxurious, but some manifestations of it are, and it becomes particularly so at the elite ends of the spectrum. Folk music performed with friends and family often is not "luxurious" or extravagant at all.

My acquaintance who attends a notable Eastern European opera house and is indeed a patron / supporter there... I would consider that outside the domain of what befits the Christian, even though from a certain perspective I appreciate his patronage of the arts. (To be clear, he isn't a Christian. He was close before that stupid war broke out. Now, the evils of war have animated spirits of hatred that make one end up very far away from God, and in particular the pollution of church mixing with state does great harm to someone who was once interested in Jesus' kingdom.)

[mike]

Music, in terms of products or services that you pay for, is without question a luxury. It's one of those things that is first to go when you are short on money.

Really? There are many who love music, myself included, who prioritize having it as part of their lives even when the budget is tight. If "luxury" is being defined as anything not necessary for survival, that includes a whole host of things, including using the internet to access MennoNet.

I don't know the people I'm conversing with in real life, so it's possible you are indeed living radically different lives from almost everything I know in an Anabaptist context. Do you all live in mud huts on small, barren plots of land? Are all of your vehicles, if you have any, at least fifteen years old? Do you subsist on bread and potatoes? Do you have bans on hunting and all sports? Have you never gone on a vacation, unless cheaply, to visit relatives?

I'm not trying to be facetious here. But while I can certainly see that for many, any money spent on music is one of the first things to go when tight, if we're being consistent, at this point everyone is still drowning in luxury items. Obviously if the above paragraph matches anyone on this site, that changes the conversation significantly, but if not, I'm not following how there can be a principled objection to any performing arts because it is a "luxury."

Yes. Notice that I specifically said music in terms of products and services that you pay for. There is a huge amount of free recorded music available. And singing, singing and playing with others, and listening to others play and sing is often free. I'm talking specifically music that people pay for, whether that is records, streaming music subscriptions, concerts, and things of that nature. Those thing are most definitely in the discretionary spending category. In other words they are one of life's luxuries that you can easily do without. And doing without paid music doesn't even close mean you can't enjoy music in your life.

My point in bringing it up is basically that it should be a consideration of someone entering music as a career, just like it should be a consideration of someone deciding to set up a business selling luxury vehicles or homes or extremely high end cabinetry. Just be aware that it is a niche market predicated on discretionary spending and thus could theoretically decline or go away if times are tough.

Also, I'm not presenting this as an objection to performing arts necessarily. Just stating what I see as a reality for those who chose it as a career.

[seeking-artist]

Yes. Notice that I specifically said music in terms of products and services that you pay for. There is a huge amount of free recorded music available. And singing, singing and playing with others, and listening to others play and sing is often free. I'm talking specifically music that people pay for, whether that is records, streaming music subscriptions, concerts, and things of that nature. Those thing are most definitely in the discretionary spending category. In other words they are one of life's luxuries that you can easily do without. And doing without paid music doesn't even close mean you can't enjoy music in your life.

My point in bringing it up is basically that it should be a consideration of someone entering music as a career, just like it should be a consideration of someone deciding to set up a business selling luxury vehicles or homes or extremely high end cabinetry. Just be aware that it is a niche market predicated on discretionary spending and thus could theoretically decline or go away if times are tough.

Also, I'm not presenting this as an objection to performing arts necessarily. Just stating what I see as a reality for those who chose it as a career.

I think my point is that unless you or others are in a very different community than the ones I'm familiar with, the same points would apply to most careers. Most people that I know in Anabaptist contexts work producing discretionary items. And most people have a significant amount of their income going towards discretionary items, especially if you include things like nicer houses or larger properties than strictly necessary. In fact, this is so much the case that I think it's easy to argue that someone working in music is actually providing a service that improves human well-being a good bit more than average. This can apply to teachers, but arguably also to performing artists.

[mike]

I think my point is that unless you or others are in a very different community than the ones I'm familiar with, the same points would apply to most careers. Most people that I know in Anabaptist contexts work producing discretionary items. And most people have a significant amount of their income going towards discretionary items, especially if you include things like nicer houses or larger properties than strictly necessary. In fact, this is so much the case that I think it's easy to argue that someone working in music is actually providing a service that improves human well-being a good bit more than average. This can apply to teachers, but arguably also to performing artists.

That's an interesting argument. I believe God obviously created music and that as such it enhances human existence in many wonderful ways, some of which we may not understand. Whether it is actually true that it improves human well-being "more than the average," that I am not sure of.

I would be curious to hear the thoughts of someone who has spent a career working in music. I think for example of long-time Christian choral conductors who have enriched many people's lives. Perhaps they would agree with you. However, I would find it hard to say that a humble Christian mechanic or carpenter or janitor who has faithfully lived out his vocation has a has somehow had a lesser calling.

[seeking-artist]

That's an interesting argument. I believe God obviously created music and that as such it enhances human existence in many wonderful ways, some of which we may not understand. Whether it is actually true that it improves human well-being "more than the average," that I am not sure of.

I would be curious to hear the thoughts of someone who has spent a career working in music. I think for example of long-time Christian choral conductors who have enriched many people's lives. Perhaps they would agree with you. However, I would find it hard to say that a humble Christian mechanic or carpenter or janitor who has faithfully lived out his vocation has a has somehow had a lesser calling.

I've spent most of the past decade working as a music teacher myself. I by no means want to diss on the "humble Christian mechanic or carpenter or janitor;" I'd be more than happy to have the community come to a place where a career in music was seen as merely equal. My "more than average" comment is taking into account the large percentage of Anabaptists I know who are hardly in "humble" careers but are employed making luxury items for wealthy people. I doubt you'd disagree yourself that someone teaching music to young people is benefiting society more than someone making multi-million dollar homes.

[mike]

That's an interesting argument. I believe God obviously created music and that as such it enhances human existence in many wonderful ways, some of which we may not understand. Whether it is actually true that it improves human well-being "more than the average," that I am not sure of.

I would be curious to hear the thoughts of someone who has spent a career working in music. I think for example of long-time Christian choral conductors who have enriched many people's lives. Perhaps they would agree with you. However, I would find it hard to say that a humble Christian mechanic or carpenter or janitor who has faithfully lived out his vocation has a has somehow had a lesser calling.

I've spent most of the past decade working as a music teacher myself. I by no means want to diss on the "humble Christian mechanic or carpenter or janitor;" I'd be more than happy to have the community come to a place where a career in music was seen as merely equal. My "more than average" comment is taking into account the large percentage of Anabaptists I know who are hardly in "humble" careers but are employed making luxury items for wealthy people. I doubt you'd disagree yourself that someone teaching music to young people is benefiting society more than someone making multi-million dollar homes.

No, I wouldn't disagree with that.

[joshuabgood]

That's an interesting argument. I believe God obviously created music and that as such it enhances human existence in many wonderful ways, some of which we may not understand. Whether it is actually true that it improves human well-being "more than the average," that I am not sure of.

I would be curious to hear the thoughts of someone who has spent a career working in music. I think for example of long-time Christian choral conductors who have enriched many people's lives. Perhaps they would agree with you. However, I would find it hard to say that a humble Christian mechanic or carpenter or janitor who has faithfully lived out his vocation has a has somehow had a lesser calling.

I've spent most of the past decade working as a music teacher myself. I by no means want to diss on the "humble Christian mechanic or carpenter or janitor;" I'd be more than happy to have the community come to a place where a career in music was seen as merely equal. My "more than average" comment is taking into account the large percentage of Anabaptists I know who are hardly in "humble" careers but are employed making luxury items for wealthy people. I doubt you'd disagree yourself that someone teaching music to young people is benefiting society more than someone making multi-million dollar homes.

No, I wouldn't disagree with that.

I wouldn't either...but it isn't valued as much. That seems pretty clear in a number of ways.