Venezuela 2025

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
Jazman
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Re: Venezuela 2025

Post by Jazman »

HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Fri Dec 05, 2025 2:01 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Fri Dec 05, 2025 11:23 am
HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 11:35 am You have no idea the ripple effects this has caused here.
Can you say more?
Not only did he pardon the previous president but he also inserted himself into the presidential elections held this past Sunday. He endorsed the candidate from the same party as the now-pardoned ex-president which seems to have had the effect of reinvigorating that candidate's (Nasry Asfura) chances of winning when, for all the world, it looked as though that one Salvador Nasralla of the Liberal Party, the least of corrupt of the 3 main contenders would, after 4 attempts, finally get himself elected. It also had the strange effect of giving an excuse to the governing Libre Party (Socialist/Chavist) as to why they lost. They are now claiming fraud because the Gringos started meddling and are refusing to concede even though they were thoroughly shellacked. Nasralla too is claiming fraud on the party of the National Party (Asfura's party) and it's very difficult to know what's going on. The level of uncertainty in the country is very high right now. Add to that Trump's pardon of Juan Orlando Hernandez who is loathed by the majority of his countrymen and the sense of bewilderment, unease and mistrust goes through the roof. Hondurans, even more so than Americans, are prone to conjecture, hearsay and conspiratorial thinking - the only way they make sense of the endorsement, pardon, slow vote count, failing counting systems, Trump's low-key threat to use force if the vote-counting doesn't wrap-up soon and the surprise of turnaround of Asfura's fortunes are to assume that the Americans are pulling all sorts of strings. Which they very well may be.
In short, he believes he can (or should) also run/rule/control/micro-manage Central America too...
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A Confessing Church would acknowledge the inescapable realities of sin and injustice in every human institution, including every political party. It would wholeheartedly reject any suggestion that one party or movement is the party of God. Paul D Miller
barnhart
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Re: Venezuela 2025

Post by barnhart »

If there is a consistency, if would be that big nations should control the small nations around them. Russia should manage or control Ukraine and the US should manage central America.
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JohnH
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Re: Venezuela 2025

Post by JohnH »

Generally speaking, small nations will be clients of some larger nation. It’s just a question of which one… Russia? China? Or the U.S.?
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HondurasKeiser
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Affiliation: LMC/IEMH

Re: Venezuela 2025

Post by HondurasKeiser »

Jazman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 08, 2025 7:16 am
HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Fri Dec 05, 2025 2:01 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Fri Dec 05, 2025 11:23 am

Can you say more?
Not only did he pardon the previous president but he also inserted himself into the presidential elections held this past Sunday. He endorsed the candidate from the same party as the now-pardoned ex-president which seems to have had the effect of reinvigorating that candidate's (Nasry Asfura) chances of winning when, for all the world, it looked as though that one Salvador Nasralla of the Liberal Party, the least of corrupt of the 3 main contenders would, after 4 attempts, finally get himself elected. It also had the strange effect of giving an excuse to the governing Libre Party (Socialist/Chavist) as to why they lost. They are now claiming fraud because the Gringos started meddling and are refusing to concede even though they were thoroughly shellacked. Nasralla too is claiming fraud on the party of the National Party (Asfura's party) and it's very difficult to know what's going on. The level of uncertainty in the country is very high right now. Add to that Trump's pardon of Juan Orlando Hernandez who is loathed by the majority of his countrymen and the sense of bewilderment, unease and mistrust goes through the roof. Hondurans, even more so than Americans, are prone to conjecture, hearsay and conspiratorial thinking - the only way they make sense of the endorsement, pardon, slow vote count, failing counting systems, Trump's low-key threat to use force if the vote-counting doesn't wrap-up soon and the surprise of turnaround of Asfura's fortunes are to assume that the Americans are pulling all sorts of strings. Which they very well may be.
In short, he believes he can (or should) also run/rule/control/micro-manage Central America too...
No I don’t draw that conclusion. I don’t see him as wanting to rule Honduras. He wants what all presidents want; favorable outcomes in elections. He is inconstant though and says on twitter what other presidents would communicate through diplomatic channels. And the result is that he sows chaos and is, I think, often self-defeating as a result.
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Bootstrap
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Affiliation: Virginia Conference

Re: Venezuela 2025

Post by Bootstrap »

barnhart wrote: ↑Mon Dec 08, 2025 7:51 am If there is a consistency, if would be that big nations should control the small nations around them. Russia should manage or control Ukraine and the US should manage central America.
And the US should manage Canada and Mexico? And NATO? Really? How is that working for us? Should we threaten to invade Canada and Mexico when they do not do our bidding?
JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Dec 08, 2025 8:45 am Generally speaking, small nations will be clients of some larger nation. It’s just a question of which one… Russia? China? Or the U.S.?
That's Russia's narrative. Many American presidents have been frustrated that our allies do not act like clients at all, they do not do what we want them to unless they think it is in their interest.

America's new foreign policy is not a given. And the moral choices it makes are, indeed, moral choices.
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1. Are we discussing the topic? Good.
2. Are we going around and around in a fight? Let's stop doing that.
3. Is there some serious wrongdoing or relational injury? Let's address that, probably not in public and certainly not for show.
JohnH
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Re: Venezuela 2025

Post by JohnH »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Dec 08, 2025 11:55 am
JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Dec 08, 2025 8:45 am Generally speaking, small nations will be clients of some larger nation. It’s just a question of which one… Russia? China? Or the U.S.?
That's Russia's narrative. Many American presidents have been frustrated that our allies do not act like clients at all, they do not do what we want them to unless they think it is in their interest.
It's rather obvious, Boot, that if a country is not in America's sphere of influence they will typically end up in Russia or China's sphere of influence.

I do not understand why you would want countries to be in Russia's sphere of influence, and then act like it's somehow wrong for America to object to that.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Venezuela 2025

Post by Bootstrap »

JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Dec 08, 2025 12:13 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Dec 08, 2025 11:55 am
JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Dec 08, 2025 8:45 am Generally speaking, small nations will be clients of some larger nation. It’s just a question of which one… Russia? China? Or the U.S.?
That's Russia's narrative. Many American presidents have been frustrated that our allies do not act like clients at all, they do not do what we want them to unless they think it is in their interest.
It's rather obvious, Boot, that if a country is not in America's sphere of influence they will typically end up in Russia or China's sphere of influence.
A sphere of influence is very different from a client-state relationship. Influence is not the same as control. Persuasion and trade are not the same as military threats.

A country within a sphere of influence may choose to cooperate because it sees mutual benefit. A client state, by contrast, must do what the major power demands; it has little real choice.

I do not think we should threaten our neighbors with military force to bend them to our will. I do not think we should murder people we are not at war with or conduct extrajudicial killings.
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1. Are we discussing the topic? Good.
2. Are we going around and around in a fight? Let's stop doing that.
3. Is there some serious wrongdoing or relational injury? Let's address that, probably not in public and certainly not for show.
barnhart
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Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:59 pm
Location: Brooklyn
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Venezuela 2025

Post by barnhart »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Dec 08, 2025 11:55 am
barnhart wrote: ↑Mon Dec 08, 2025 7:51 am If there is a consistency, if would be that big nations should control the small nations around them. Russia should manage or control Ukraine and the US should manage central America.
And the US should manage Canada and Mexico? And NATO? Really? How is that working for us? Should we threaten to invade Canada and Mexico when they do not do our bidding?
I didn't say it was good, only consistent with other Trump administration policy. Being consistently misguided is a possibility.
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JohnH
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Re: Venezuela 2025

Post by JohnH »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Dec 08, 2025 12:56 pm
A sphere of influence is very different from a client-state relationship. Influence is not the same as control. Persuasion and trade are not the same as military threats.

A country within a sphere of influence may choose to cooperate because it sees mutual benefit. A client state, by contrast, must do what the major power demands; it has little real choice.

I do not think we should threaten our neighbors with military force to bend them to our will. I do not think we should murder people we are not at war with or conduct extrajudicial killings.
Could you detail what killing you’re okay with when we are at war?
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Valerie
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Re: Venezuela 2025

Post by Valerie »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Dec 08, 2025 12:56 pm
JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Dec 08, 2025 12:13 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Mon Dec 08, 2025 11:55 am

That's Russia's narrative. Many American presidents have been frustrated that our allies do not act like clients at all, they do not do what we want them to unless they think it is in their interest.
It's rather obvious, Boot, that if a country is not in America's sphere of influence they will typically end up in Russia or China's sphere of influence.
I do not think we should threaten our neighbors with military force to bend them to our will. I do not think we should murder people we are not at war with or conduct extrajudicial killings.
Unless of course, our neighbors are not being neighborly by killing our people. Then it’s not mirder it is defense.
The “war” on drugs.
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