To me it sounds like he may be intending to reject the 28-point plan in its current form.
i don’t see Z versus Putin as good versus evil.
Z is in the hot seat with Ukrainians, he’s encouraged them to fight to such an extent, AND (i understand) he has become wealthy in the process. i expect he faces a lot of anger.
0 x
i’m perfectly comfortable with an older, wiser, more docile Trump.
”Try hard not to offend. Try harder not to be offended.” Robert Martz
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sat Nov 22, 2025 8:18 pm
....
To me it sounds like [President Zelensky] may be intending to reject the 28-point plan in its current form.
In a sense, he doesn't have an option - he (and the majority of the Ukrainian people) made that choice when this all started. He could have resigned and fled the country. Some would not have blamed him if he had attempted to run the resistance from outside of Ukraine's borders. Other national leaders have done this. He could have hidden in a bunker, and stopped appearing in public. (The US has a presidential bunker.) He continued at the head of the country, in constant danger, just like the rest of his countrymen (as well as women and children). He was admired for his willingness to do this. But the country has continued to be steadily destroyed, reduced to death and rubble, by the invader. And now, looking back, he must be wondering if he should have just surrendered. But many of the military would have been executed, and the people would be living in subjugation to their persistent persecutor. He entered public office knowing his responsibility. Ukrainians have never naively forgotten their past suffering at the hands of Russian governments. This last Saturday was the "Day of Remembrance" for the Holodomor. The past is real, and it is still in action against the Ukrainian people.
This all will sound political to those who read it all, and will wonder why I am breaking my rule about political involvement. Yes, I am conflicted. Have I crossed the line? I don't know, but I have only attempted to consider these events from the perspective of the Ukrainian people. My own people suffered death and depredation under Soviet Russian rule as well. Perhaps my interest in this issue is partly due to a sort of 'corporate guilt' - that my people had others outside of the USSR who sent aid to survive Stalin's attempts to eradicate the Ukrainian people, relatives in North America (especially Canada) and free Germany. Sort of a "survivor guilt". I do not know how many here will understand that, what it feels like.
My own people suffered death and depredation under Soviet Russian rule as well.
On behalf of “your people”, you’ll be delight to know Soviet Russia ceased to exist 34 years ago, although that’s the reason this conflict exists at all now because of the post-Soviet instability.
It's pretty similar to the 28-point plan, but makes adjustments such as Ukraine's military manpower being 800,000 rather than 600,000. It still calls for the reentry of Russia into the international community.
The European version removes Russia’s demand that Ukraine gives up the eastern Donbas region. The deal also removes a clause that would give the US 50 per cent of future profits from frozen Russian assets invested in Ukraine... The European counter-proposal says that “negotiations on territorial swaps will start from the line of contact” or front line... It proposes that Ukraine should receive a security guarantee from Washington similar to Nato’s Article 5 clause...
The Europeans want Russian sovereign assets to remain frozen until Moscow pays compensation for the immense damage it has caused since its full-scale invasion.
But still, reading over the European plan, it's basically just pushing back on some of the details of the US plan.
My own people suffered death and depredation under Soviet Russian rule as well.
On behalf of “your people”, you’ll be delight to know Soviet Russia ceased to exist 34 years ago, although that’s the reason this conflict exists at all now because of the post-Soviet instability.
Yes, I fully realize that the USSR ceased to exist in the eyes of the world at large, but resurgence of the popularity of former Soviet leaders in the Russian Federation indicates that it has not totally died in the minds of all of the Russian people, most notably, and most importantly, of the leaders there. The most alarming is the 'rehabilitation' of Joseph Stalin.
I might add that the armies of both the Russian Republic ('White Russia') and the Bolsheviks (the 'Reds') fought against the efforts of Ukrainians to establish an independent state (after the collapse of the Russian Empire). The disregard of the Ukrainian people by the Russian people goes way back. Is it any surprise that Ukrainians do not find them trust-worthy, friendly neighbors?
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sat Nov 22, 2025 8:18 pm
....
To me it sounds like [President Zelensky] may be intending to reject the 28-point plan in its current form.
In a sense, he doesn't have an option - he (and the majority of the Ukrainian people) made that choice when this all started. He could have resigned and fled the country. Some would not have blamed him if he had attempted to run the resistance from outside of Ukraine's borders. Other national leaders have done this. He could have hidden in a bunker, and stopped appearing in public. (The US has a presidential bunker.) He continued at the head of the country, in constant danger, just like the rest of his countrymen (as well as women and children). He was admired for his willingness to do this. But the country has continued to be steadily destroyed, reduced to death and rubble, by the invader. And now, looking back, he must be wondering if he should have just surrendered. But many of the military would have been executed, and the people would be living in subjugation to their persistent persecutor. He entered public office knowing his responsibility. Ukrainians have never naively forgotten their past suffering at the hands of Russian governments. This last Saturday was the "Day of Remembrance" for the Holodomor. The past is real, and it is still in action against the Ukrainian people.
This all will sound political to those who read it all, and will wonder why I am breaking my rule about political involvement. Yes, I am conflicted. Have I crossed the line? I don't know, but I have only attempted to consider these events from the perspective of the Ukrainian people. My own people suffered death and depredation under Soviet Russian rule as well. Perhaps my interest in this issue is partly due to a sort of 'corporate guilt' - that my people had others outside of the USSR who sent aid to survive Stalin's attempts to eradicate the Ukrainian people, relatives in North America (especially Canada) and free Germany. Sort of a "survivor guilt". I do not know how many here will understand that, what it feels like.
The only thing you left out is the part about Z gaining personal fame+fortune while Ukrainians sacrificed, and their probable anger toward him now over all of it.
If this is accurate, it sounds like “no change” from Z’s disastrous non-meeting with T to sign the minerals agreement.
There are plenty of prominent political partisans advising Z not to agree to anything.
Z and Putin seem to be cut from the same stubborn cloth. Literally, they could be DNA brothers.
0 x
i’m perfectly comfortable with an older, wiser, more docile Trump.
”Try hard not to offend. Try harder not to be offended.” Robert Martz
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sat Nov 22, 2025 8:18 pm
....
To me it sounds like [President Zelensky] may be intending to reject the 28-point plan in its current form.
In a sense, he doesn't have an option - he (and the majority of the Ukrainian people) made that choice when this all started. He could have resigned and fled the country. Some would not have blamed him if he had attempted to run the resistance from outside of Ukraine's borders. Other national leaders have done this. He could have hidden in a bunker, and stopped appearing in public. (The US has a presidential bunker.) He continued at the head of the country, in constant danger, just like the rest of his countrymen (as well as women and children). He was admired for his willingness to do this. But the country has continued to be steadily destroyed, reduced to death and rubble, by the invader. And now, looking back, he must be wondering if he should have just surrendered. But many of the military would have been executed, and the people would be living in subjugation to their persistent persecutor. He entered public office knowing his responsibility. Ukrainians have never naively forgotten their past suffering at the hands of Russian governments. This last Saturday was the "Day of Remembrance" for the Holodomor. The past is real, and it is still in action against the Ukrainian people.
This all will sound political to those who read it all, and will wonder why I am breaking my rule about political involvement. Yes, I am conflicted. Have I crossed the line? I don't know, but I have only attempted to consider these events from the perspective of the Ukrainian people. My own people suffered death and depredation under Soviet Russian rule as well. Perhaps my interest in this issue is partly due to a sort of 'corporate guilt' - that my people had others outside of the USSR who sent aid to survive Stalin's attempts to eradicate the Ukrainian people, relatives in North America (especially Canada) and free Germany. Sort of a "survivor guilt". I do not know how many here will understand that, what it feels like.
The only thing you left out is the part about Z gaining personal fame+fortune while Ukrainians sacrificed, and their probable anger toward him now over all of it.
If this is accurate, it sounds like “no change” from Z’s disastrous non-meeting with T to sign the minerals agreement.
Z and Putin seem to be cut from the same stubborn cloth. Literally, they could be DNA brothers.
I didn't mention that because I don't know if it is true, one way or the other. Certainly a lot of world leaders have been impressed by his decision to remain in country, but I have no facts about his having gained great wealth during this war time. Of course he is still getting paid something, and has done a lot of international travel, presumably at government expense. (I left out any comments about that before because I wanted to avoid all possible conflict over this question.)
My own people suffered death and depredation under Soviet Russian rule as well.
On behalf of “your people”, you’ll be delight to know Soviet Russia ceased to exist 34 years ago, although that’s the reason this conflict exists at all now because of the post-Soviet instability.
Yes, I fully realize that the USSR ceased to exist in the eyes of the world at large, but resurgence of the popularity of former Soviet leaders in the Russian Federation indicates that it has not totally died in the minds of all of the Russian people, most notably, and most importantly, of the leaders there. The most alarming is the 'rehabilitation' of Joseph Stalin.
I might add that the armies of both the Russian Republic ('White Russia') and the Bolsheviks (the 'Reds') fought against the efforts of Ukrainians to establish an independent state (after the collapse of the Russian Empire). The disregard of the Ukrainian people by the Russian people goes way back. Is it any surprise that Ukrainians do not find them trust-worthy, friendly neighbors?
I find it silly to continue a blood feud dating back to the 1910s.
I find it silly to continue a blood feud dating back to the 1910s.
That’s what it is. Easy for outsiders to see through it. Rage and passions are powerful and dangerous emotions. To all around.
Neto wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 9:46 am I might add that the armies of both the Russian Republic ('White Russia') and the Bolsheviks (the 'Reds') fought against the efforts of Ukrainians to establish an independent state (after the collapse of the Russian Empire). The disregard of the Ukrainian people by the Russian people goes way back. Is it any surprise that Ukrainians do not find them trust-worthy, friendly neighbors?
Domestic disputes are of the most bitter and violent. Often being passionate fights to the death of all involved.
0 x
i’m perfectly comfortable with an older, wiser, more docile Trump.
”Try hard not to offend. Try harder not to be offended.” Robert Martz
I find it silly to continue a blood feud dating back to the 1910s.
That’s what it is. Easy for outsiders to see through it. Rage and passions are powerful and dangerous emotions. To all around.
Neto wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 9:46 am I might add that the armies of both the Russian Republic ('White Russia') and the Bolsheviks (the 'Reds') fought against the efforts of Ukrainians to establish an independent state (after the collapse of the Russian Empire). The disregard of the Ukrainian people by the Russian people goes way back. Is it any surprise that Ukrainians do not find them trust-worthy, friendly neighbors?
Domestic disputes are of the most bitter and violent. Often being passionate fights to the death of all involved.
The answer is for each person to accept Christ, and put their swords away.
