Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[Josh]

I sense a certain irony in being against abortion yet turning a blind eye when children and babies are excused as "human shields" or "collateral damage".

As some of those being killed are unborn children, this is a form of abortion. Somehow many of those who are against abortion under any circumstances make an exception for war. Sad.

Yes, and this is a rather blind eye the political right wing has. I pray that conservative Anabaptists resist the temptation to get into politics so that they won’t be polluted by this kind of hypocrisy.

[temporal1]

I sense a certain irony in being against abortion yet turning a blind eye when children and babies are excused as "human shields" or "collateral damage".

As some of those being killed are unborn children, this is a form of abortion. Somehow many of those who are against abortion under any circumstances make an exception for war. Sad.

Yes, and this is a rather blind eye the political right wing has. I pray that conservative Anabaptists resist the temptation to get into politics so that they won’t be polluted by this kind of hypocrisy.

i hope you notice my post at the bottom of the previous page. i guess we wrote at the same time.
i doubt “the eye” is as blind as you guys are thinking.

[Josh]

i hope you notice my post at the bottom of the previous page. i guess we wrote at the same time.
i doubt “the eye” is as blind as you guys are thinking.

The political right wing is very far from the teachings of Jesus and in particular it is in favour of indiscriminate killing, which Jesus taught us not to do.

[Ken]

i hope you notice my post at the bottom of the previous page. i guess we wrote at the same time.
i doubt “the eye” is as blind as you guys are thinking.

The political right wing is very far from the teachings of Jesus and in particular it is in favour of indiscriminate killing, which Jesus taught us not to do.

Violence may sometimes be inevitable. In both politics and life. I don't think, for example, that there was much if anything that Poland could have done to prevent the Nazi invasion in 1939. Hitler had already chosen that path and nothing the Poles might do was going to change it.

But Israel is not in that position. What Israel has done is made a very long series of decisions that made violence more inevitable. And then made a whole series of other mistakes or bad decisions that had the effect of narrowing their options when violence did metastasize.

It is rather like someone who likes to get drunk and go to biker bars and act abusive and obnoxious. Such as person should not be surprised when bar fights happen and they find themselves in the middle of them.

For the past several decades, Israel has been deliberately undermining peaceful and conciliatory elements in Palestinian society that might actually be partners in some peaceful 2-state solution. And instead deliberately propping up Hamas to make such an outcome less likely while going whole hog on its West Bank settlement policies that have inevitably lead to what amounts to an Apartheid state.

And at the same time they have been criminally negligent in managing the actual defense of Southern Israel against incursions by Hamas. Which led to the events of 10/7. More and more information keeps coming out that Israel actually knew Hamas' plans and did nothing. So the brutality and deadliness of the 10/7 attacks are entirely on Israel. Ukraine has managed to defend its territory along a 1000+ mile frontier against the relentless attacks of Russia's enormous modern army such that Russian gains have been measured in terms of yards over the past year. And Israel which has a more modern army than Ukraine can't defend its vastly smaller border against a rag tag band of terrorists on motorbikes and hang gliders?

And all the right wing evangelical churches that are doubling down on support for Israel's war plans and geopolitical objectives right or wrong are indeed, very from the teachings of Jesus.

[Josh]

For the past several decades, Israel has been deliberately undermining peaceful and conciliatory elements in Palestinian society that might actually be partners in some peaceful 2-state solution. And instead deliberately propping up Hamas to make such an outcome less likely while going whole hog on its West Bank settlement policies that have inevitably lead to what amounts to an Apartheid state.

Slight nuance here: the right wing politicians have been doing this in Israel. The opposition parties have spoken against this, and politicians like Yitzakh Rabin were very reasonable. Or Ehud Barak.

Much like America ended up with a President and Congress that decided to go on an insane war in 2001/2002 that cost a million lives and trillions of dollars.

And at the same time they have been criminally negligent in managing the actual defense of Southern Israel against incursions by Hamas. Which led to the events of 10/7. More and more information keeps coming out that Israel actually knew Hamas' plans and did nothing. So the brutality and deadliness of the 10/7 attacks are entirely on Israel. Ukraine has managed to defend its territory along a 1000+ mile frontier against the relentless attacks of Russia's enormous modern army such that Russian gains have been measured in terms of yards over the past year. And Israel which has a more modern army than Ukraine can't defend its vastly smaller border against a rag tag band of terrorists on motorbikes and hang gliders?

And all the right wing evangelical churches that are doubling down on support for Israel's war plans and geopolitical objectives right or wrong are indeed, very from the teachings of Jesus.

Yes. It is bizarre to see evangelicalism basically take up a foreign country’s political party up as its own mantle. It’s one thing to support Republicans… the evangelical right wing literally sends out prayer chain emails that Netanyahu would win elections or remain in office, under the guise of that he’ll somehow be better for Israel to hold on to more territory. I fail to see how that’s remotely biblical.

A lot of Israelis are very unhappy with right wing leadership and have serious concerns how this is undermining democracy and destroying any chance of a working peace process. Just like many Gazans are not happy at all about being ruled by Hamas.

[Ken]

For the past several decades, Israel has been deliberately undermining peaceful and conciliatory elements in Palestinian society that might actually be partners in some peaceful 2-state solution. And instead deliberately propping up Hamas to make such an outcome less likely while going whole hog on its West Bank settlement policies that have inevitably lead to what amounts to an Apartheid state.

Slight nuance here: the right wing politicians have been doing this in Israel. The opposition parties have spoken against this, and politicians like Yitzakh Rabin were very reasonable. Or Ehud Barak.

Much like America ended up with a President and Congress that decided to go on an insane war in 2001/2002 that cost a million lives and trillions of dollars.

And at the same time they have been criminally negligent in managing the actual defense of Southern Israel against incursions by Hamas. Which led to the events of 10/7. More and more information keeps coming out that Israel actually knew Hamas' plans and did nothing. So the brutality and deadliness of the 10/7 attacks are entirely on Israel. Ukraine has managed to defend its territory along a 1000+ mile frontier against the relentless attacks of Russia's enormous modern army such that Russian gains have been measured in terms of yards over the past year. And Israel which has a more modern army than Ukraine can't defend its vastly smaller border against a rag tag band of terrorists on motorbikes and hang gliders?

And all the right wing evangelical churches that are doubling down on support for Israel's war plans and geopolitical objectives right or wrong are indeed, very from the teachings of Jesus.

Yes. It is bizarre to see evangelicalism basically take up a foreign country’s political party up as its own mantle. It’s one thing to support Republicans… the evangelical right wing literally sends out prayer chain emails that Netanyahu would win elections or remain in office, under the guise of that he’ll somehow be better for Israel to hold on to more territory. I fail to see how that’s remotely biblical.

A lot of Israelis are very unhappy with right wing leadership and have serious concerns how this is undermining democracy and destroying any chance of a working peace process. Just like many Gazans are not happy at all about being ruled by Hamas.

There are essentially five possible long-term outcomes in Israel.

1. Endless low-intensity war punctuated by periods of high-intensity war such as we have now.
2. Israel wins some final solution and total control by eliminating Palestinians from the region through some form of genocide
3. Palestinians (with the help of allies) win some final solution and total control of by eliminating Jews from the region through some form of genocide
4. The two peoples agree to live together in some sort of multi-ethnic and multi-religious state like the US or India.
5. The two peoples agree to some sort of final partition and sharing of the land through a 2-state solution.

Of those 5 possible outcomes? #5 seems the most likely of the two "peace" solutions, and #1 seems the most likely of the three "war" solutions.

But #1 is actually what they have been doing now for about 75 years so I don't see things changing much in the future.

[temporal1]

i hope you notice my post at the bottom of the previous page. i guess we wrote at the same time.
i doubt “the eye” is as blind as you guys are thinking.

The political right wing is very far from the teachings of Jesus and in particular it is in favour of indiscriminate killing,
which Jesus taught us not to do.

sorry.
i thought you+jim were focusing on the particular hypocrisy of overlooking deaths of unborn in military conflicts, particularly by those who are otherwise pro life. i’m not sure that’s happening, and, i can’t speak for the political right wing, evangelicals, anabaptists, Quakers, no more than i can speak for the Palestinians or Jewish people. Evidently, Hamas releases formal statements about their shocking goals. As reported, their actions align with their statements. Pray for their souls.

(i believe) Jesus counts the unborn among living souls, God’s creation, with special tenderness for the vulnerable+defenseless, unborn and born, i.e., no matter age. No matter politics. No matter earthly profit.

Matthew 5:21 https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-21.htm

[temporal1]

Gad Saad. Too interesting to ignore.

India Today / EXCLUSIVE | Gad Saad On Israel-Hamas War And Growing Anti-Semitism On US Campuses / 43min

Description:
Aggressive protests are taking place across the world, including on university campuses in the US and Canada, over Israel's strikes in Gaza after Hamas terrorists massacred 1,400 Israelis on October 7.

Jews have been targeted, and the tone and tenor of the protests have at times been anti-Semitic.

IndiaToday.in spoke to Gad Saad, a professor at Canada's Concordia University and author of two bestsellers, on the anti-Semitic protests on campuses and why anti-Semitism precedes Zionism or the formation of Israel.

Interview and script: Yudhajit Shankar Das
Video editor: Asif Hamid

[HondurasKeiser]

It bears repeating that this could all end today if Hamas surrendered, and turned over the hostages.

For me personally, as I have two young boys; this is deeply tragic. Yes of course, dead Palestinian children are also tragic, but there's something searing about this picture, something that cuts me to the core. Seth Mandel at The Free Press sums up well my thoughts:

As the “pro-Palestinian” mobs filled the streets of every major city to celebrate Hamas’s slaughter, Jews around the world looked at them dumbfounded; they kidnapped a baby. How much does one have to hate Jews to side with the monsters who kidnap babies? A lot is the answer...

[barnhart]

For me personally, as I have two young boys; this is deeply tragic. Yes of course, dead Palestinian children are also tragic, but there's something searing about this picture, something that cuts me to the core. Seth Mandel at The Free Press sums up well my thoughts:

As the “pro-Palestinian” mobs filled the streets of every major city to celebrate Hamas’s slaughter, Jews around the world looked at them dumbfounded; they kidnapped a baby. How much does one have to hate Jews to side with the monsters who kidnap babies? A lot is the answer...

Tragedy all around...

I have tried to be a little quiet and allow Israel room to respond to terrorism, as that seems to fall within the role God has ordained for government. But I notice a difference between Palestinian tragedy and Israeli tragedy. One is documented, I know the names and faces without searching and the other is anonymous. How many names of dead Palestinian children do you know? I can't think of any off hand.

I'm not trying to deflect or minimize Israeli tragedy but rather refuse numbness or ignorance of either one.