Department of Government Efficiency DOGE

[Ken]

There is no such thing as public money. It is all private money confiscated by government. Let the people have their money to educate their children in the school they choose, not the ones the beaurocrats choose.

Right. As Jesus would say. Whose name is on your dollar bill. Your name or the name of your government? And, in any event, the majority of school children in this country come from families who do NOT pay taxes equal to the costs of their education. So all you are talking about is confiscating other people's tax dollars and spending it on unaccountable private schools rather than public schools. In my district, the biggest property taxpayer is a corporation called "Fisher Investments" which has a massive office complex worth hundreds of millions of dollars. And the top 20 taxpayers are various other corporations, not families. And in any event, it is the local taxpayers who are deciding how much property taxes to pay and what to spend it on. By larger supermajorities. If you want to propose they tax themselves to support private schools as well, go ahead. We live in a democracy. Put it to a vote. See what happens.

The district school monopoly has nearly destroyed American education. Break up the government cartels.

The good public schools, like the one I worked at for 7 years will thrive. The bad ones will close.

In point of fact, American public schools perform at the very top of the world when one does an apples to apples comparison. And the current American education system provides more alternatives and choices than any other country by far.

In any event, some sort of universal voucher system of the sort you are advocating for would be the very opposite of this thread. It would be a massive new taxpayer funded government entitlement program with absolutely zero accountability.

[barnhart]

In point of fact, American public schools perform at the very top of the world when one does an apples to apples comparison. And the current American education system provides more alternatives and choices than any other country by far.

I have read similar analysis, the educational systems the US is often compared with generally have gates to shunt off poor academic performers into trade schools designed for specific industries. This can happen quite early in grade school. The US is notable for attempting to give opportunities for as wide a group as possible.

[Ken]

In point of fact, American public schools perform at the very top of the world when one does an apples to apples comparison. And the current American education system provides more alternatives and choices than any other country by far.

I have read similar analysis, the educational systems the US is often compared with generally have gates to shunt off poor academic performers into specialized tech schools designed for specific industries. This can happen quite early in grade school. The US is notable for attempting to give opportunities for as wide a group as possible.

Even when that is taken into account, US public schools perform at the top of the world when one isolates for race and socioeconomic factors. In other words, US Asian-American students perform as good or better than Asian students anywhere in the world. US White students perform as good or better than White students anywhere in the world. US Hispanic students perform as good or better than Hispanic students anywhere in the world. And US Black students perform as good or better than Black students anywhere else in the world. The US education system has inequities to be sure. But it does a better job than the school systems anywhere else. And it also provides more diversity of choices and alternatives than anywhere else as well. There is a reason why more wealthy foreigners seek to educate their children in the US than any other country in the world.

[joshuabgood]

If you want to propose they tax themselves to support private schools as well, go ahead. We live in a democracy. Put it to a vote. See what happens.

Fortunately, some would say, this is exactly what is happening. Vouchers in states like OH, IN, LA, have been steadily gaining ground. And they actually work well and the populace likes them. Vouchers are much more widespread in the, much more secular still, Europe. There are whole European countries, like Belgium, that are totally voucher systems.

With Trump winning again, hopefully part of the democratic mandate will include additional empowerment for poor people to make the same sorts of choices that the wealthy do, like you know, all the Democratic presidents.

The point is, the money is already being taxed. It wouldn't take additional money. It simply is breaking up the government cartel on education. Currently, a private school like the one I am privileged to lead, spends real money at about 8-9K per student. Whereas our local districts drop something like 20-30K. Many school districts and teachers unions oppose vouchers, and their twin sister, charters. But the obvious financial incentive and monopoly protecting personal interest is clear.

As for public education, I have been very close to both the best, most selective screened schools in NYCDOE as well as the worst. Bloomberg (Joel Klein and Eric Nadelstern), all Democrats, to their credit, in essence introduced a voucher system if you will among the 1600 or so public schools when I was there. The money followed the student to the charter, or the public school of choice. Failing schools were closed and new ones opened. The stunning success that followed was evident to everybody that lived it. I was there as a teacher in a great school, and then a Principal of new small school that replaced a failing, school, and then an Asst Supt with 30 schools, some great ones and some failing ones.

The model of school choice works. It can be done. There seems to be rising democratic support for it. Other quasi voucher programs like EITC in PA and the FL version are enormously popular across the aisle. In the rural areas and in inner cities by white and brown people. They are opposed by unions, district employees. (And for what it is worth I was a card carrying UFT member for 7 years.)

[Wesleyb]

If you want to propose they tax themselves to support private schools as well, go ahead. We live in a democracy. Put it to a vote. See what happens.

Currently, a private school like the one I am privileged to lead, spends real money at about 8-9K per student. Whereas our local districts drop something like 20-30K.

Could you do it for 8-9K if you had the same mix of bright students and learning-challenged/special needs students as the public schools? And provided free transportation and meals?

[barnhart]

If you want to propose they tax themselves to support private schools as well, go ahead. We live in a democracy. Put it to a vote. See what happens.

Currently, a private school like the one I am privileged to lead, spends real money at about 8-9K per student. Whereas our local districts drop something like 20-30K.

Could you do it for 8-9K if you had the same mix of bright students and learning-challenged/special needs students as the public schools? And provided free transportation and meals?

I imagine a lot of cost goes into worker benefit plans like healthcare and retirement. These costs always feel extreme unless it is your healthcare or retirement and then it feels like you earned it.

[JohnH]

Our school is under $4000 per year per student, based on the total budget divided by number of pupils. (We have a member supported school)

All members children go to school. Gifted kids, kids with learning disabilities or special needs. The latter usually necessitates hiring 1 extra teacher just to focus on them.

Teachers are provided health care too through our church Health Sharing Aid Plan.

As far as retirement... they can save for retirement like anyone else...not sure why schools should be in the retirement plan business? Most of our young teachers want to move to a new place to get married, I guess that is their "retirement plan"

For male teachers they are expected to save for retirement. Just like anyone else who has a business, or a job.

EDIT:

Regarding meals:

I am not sure why a school should be a restaurant? The ladies at church get together and provide hot lunch regularly. Otherwise parents are expected to feed their own children and send them to school with a lunch. Breakfast can be eaten at home

Transportation... we live within a few minutes of the school... and church... some parents choose to "car pool" and take turns driving a group of kids in.

None of this needs to be expensive or complicated

[Wesleyb]

Currently, a private school like the one I am privileged to lead, spends real money at about 8-9K per student. Whereas our local districts drop something like 20-30K.

Could you do it for 8-9K if you had the same mix of bright students and learning-challenged/special needs students as the public schools? And provided free transportation and meals?

I imagine a lot of cost goes into worker benefit plans like healthcare and retirement. These costs always feel extreme unless it is your healthcare or retirement and then it feels like you earned it.

Yes, I was assuming that Josh's school is providing decent benefits. I know the school I grew up in had low per student costs but the teachers were very close to being volunteers.

[joshuabgood]

If you want to propose they tax themselves to support private schools as well, go ahead. We live in a democracy. Put it to a vote. See what happens.

Currently, a private school like the one I am privileged to lead, spends real money at about 8-9K per student. Whereas our local districts drop something like 20-30K.

Could you do it for 8-9K if you had the same mix of bright students and learning-challenged/special needs students as the public schools? And provided free transportation and meals?

We do provide transportation (edited to add, I should note, we do get some compensation from the district for this though it doesn't cover our costs). We provide meals as well for a nominal additional fee - and I can tell you the cost is much less and the food is much better than comparative district models. And we are known, in our sphere, for the learning support services we provide and a good number of our families are at our school because of this service. In the K-6 world we as much or more more substantive in individual support than are our district counterparts. In several cases where there were systemic learning needs we advised the families, who lived in top of the line districts in LC, to consult with their districts around the students IEP and what services the district could provide - and "lo and behold" we are providing a higher level of support than they offered. The families stayed with us. (The motif in districts schools is mainstreaming everyone, ICT for all and the "least restrictive environment." Wealthy families with lawyers used to routinely sue NYC, when I worked there in the district, and allege their child's IEP wasn't meeting their needs. The cases go to court and it wasn't infrequent that the families would win and the NYCDOE would have to pay 40-50K per year for the private education of said students.)

The only place we lag is in the most challenging situations - ie there are some students depending on mobility issues, or where ED is so pronounced that crisis care, that is 1-1, is needed, etc - we aren't able to provide the same level of support.

What is lacking in our model is an adequate compensation plan for our teachers. However, for, say about 2/3 of what the districts get, we could provide a very nice package. (Though we don't have 10 million dollar football fields...and like Charter schools we provide our own district services, that is, we design and implement our own PD, we do our own budgeting, our own enrollment, our own payroll, etc etc.)

I would also add that in the PA EITC model, we get about $700K per year we can use for scholarships. This money is included in the 8-9K btw.

[Ken]

If you want to propose they tax themselves to support private schools as well, go ahead. We live in a democracy. Put it to a vote. See what happens.

Fortunately, some would say, this is exactly what is happening. Vouchers in states like OH, IN, LA, have been steadily gaining ground. And they actually work well and the populace likes them. Vouchers are much more widespread in the, much more secular still, Europe. There are whole European countries, like Belgium, that are totally voucher systems.

With Trump winning again, hopefully part of the democratic mandate will include additional empowerment for poor people to make the same sorts of choices that the wealthy do, like you know, all the Democratic presidents.

The point is, the money is already being taxed. It wouldn't take additional money. It simply is breaking up the government cartel on education. Currently, a private school like the one I am privileged to lead, spends real money at about 8-9K per student. Whereas our local districts drop something like 20-30K. Many school districts and teachers unions oppose vouchers, and their twin sister, charters. But the obvious financial incentive and monopoly protecting personal interest is clear.

As for public education, I have been very close to both the best, most selective screened schools in NYCDOE as well as the worst. Bloomberg (Joel Klein and Eric Nadelstern), all Democrats, to their credit, in essence introduced a voucher system if you will among the 1600 or so public schools when I was there. The money followed the student to the charter, or the public school of choice. Failing schools were closed and new ones opened. The stunning success that followed was evident to everybody that lived it. I was there as a teacher in a great school, and then a Principal of new small school that replaced a failing, school, and then an Asst Supt with 30 schools, some great ones and some failing ones.

The model of school choice works. It can be done. There seems to be rising democratic support for it. Other quasi voucher programs like EITC in PA and the FL version are enormously popular across the aisle. In the rural areas and in inner cities by white and brown people. They are opposed by unions, district employees. (And for what it is worth I was a card carrying UFT member for 7 years.)

Like I said, I don't actually oppose people voting to tax themselves for whatever purpose. If it is local tax dollars, local people should decide. If it is state tax dollars, the people of that state should decide. And if it is Federal tax dollars, then Congress should decide (not the president, Congress).

What do Republicans actually want here? Do they want to eliminate the Department of Education and eliminate the Federal role in education? Or do they want to Federalize public education and assert more Federal control over education including education funding than exists now? Has to be one or the other, they are inconsistent objectives. One involves paring down the size of government. The other involves a massive new expansion of the Federal government.

But I do think public dollars should be spent in ways that are accountable. This thread is about government efficiency and accountability. If public tax dollars are flowing to private schools I think they should be held to the same public accountability standards and obey the same laws as public schools, and be evaluated according to the same metrics. And if they object to that, fine. Just don't take public dollars then.