Nonconformity, Nonresistance, Nonaccumulation

[Josh]

No one is attacking his character or integrity. It is his ideas that could pose problem and he put those ideas out there in a book for thousands to read and follow. His ideas sound good in theory, but in reality, aren't practical. And until one walked with an elderly person who had Alzheimer, laid like a vegetable for a few years, and saw the cost of that care, it is hard to understand.

People in plain communities deal with this all the time, but don’t consider it an option to spend massive amounts of money on “care”. They find other ways.

[Soloist]

No one is attacking his character or integrity. It is his ideas that could pose problem and he put those ideas out there in a book for thousands to read and follow. His ideas sound good in theory, but in reality, aren't practical. And until one walked with an elderly person who had Alzheimer, laid like a vegetable for a few years, and saw the cost of that care, it is hard to understand.

Ultimately you are right. Our children will never reliably take care of their parents. That’s why we have government to enforce it with Medicare and social security.

For those who reject it, it’s part of the package.

1Ti 5:3 Honour widows that are widows indeed.
1Ti 5:4  But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
1Ti 5:5  Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.
1Ti 5:6  But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

I know this speaks of widows, but we also have

Gal 2:10  Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do

Lastly
https://www.aplaceformom.com/caregiver- ... emory-care

The national median cost of memory care is $6,200 per month in the U.S., according to the 2024 long-term care cost report by A Place for Mom (APFM)

I don’t know about you… but 74k a year is more than I make normally. Putting away all I can might be at best 1k a month.
360,000$ for 30 years doesn’t stretch very far when you can’t bring money in.
My options then are to share while I’m able with those in need, or hoard away enough for 5 years of memory care for 1… person.
The majority of Mennonites reject his teachings and would rather someone go into debt then sell some land to provide for another person’s needs.
That is their right, it’s their belongings.
The way I see Scripture, we aren’t called to build bigger barns for when we are old. The younger are to care for the older.
Ultimately even if they refuse, society has decided the younger will care for the older and Jesus taught us not to worry about our food and clothing, we should spend what we have on investing in eternal rewards.

[Ken]

Lastly
https://www.aplaceformom.com/caregiver- ... emory-care

The national median cost of memory care is $6,200 per month in the U.S., according to the 2024 long-term care cost report by A Place for Mom (APFM)

I don’t know about you… but 74k a year is more than I make normally. Putting away all I can might be at best 1k a month.
360,000$ for 30 years doesn’t stretch very far when you can’t bring money in.
My options then are to share while I’m able with those in need, or hoard away enough for 5 years of memory care for 1… person.
The majority of Mennonites reject his teachings and would rather someone go into debt then sell some land to provide for another person’s needs.
That is their right, it’s their belongings.
The way I see Scripture, we aren’t called to build bigger barns for when we are old. The younger are to care for the older.
Ultimately even if they refuse, society has decided the younger will care for the older and Jesus taught us not to worry about our food and clothing, we should spend what we have on investing in eternal rewards.

A couple of points here:

1. My wife and I got long term care policies a couple of years ago here in WA after the state legislature passed a new long term care payroll tax that you could get exempted from if you could document your own policy. The cost is $97.60/month for both of our policies combined. They aren't Cadillac policies but they are reasonable and will pay at least 75% of the typical expense.

2. When you put someone in long term care like memory care, all their other expenses cease. No more rent or mortgage, no more food bills or utilities or car expenses. That $6,200 is the sum total of their living expenses. So the actual cost is not $6,200/month but the difference between their previous monthly retirement costs and $6,200/month. That number might still be substantial but it will be less than $6 200/month. It is obviously a more complicated calculation when you have two parents and one is in long term care while the other isn't.

3. The alternative to not paying for this sort of long-term care is expecting one of your children to quit their job to take care of you full time, 24/7. That has its own costs and implications. And is a tremendous burden to put on anyone. Especially if they have their own obligations apart from you.

[Josh]

An assumption in plain Anabaptist cultures is that only men are working, not wives, and most children would be grown by the time grandpa and grandma need care. So one of the moms will be able to do it.

This is a lot cheaper than budgeting for $9,000/mo for a nursing home (a typical cost these days).

[Ernie]

I agree with Grace here.
There are expenses associated with retirement and becoming elderly. Not just the ordinary living expenses when one is too old to work, but also possible expenses associated with long term care. We are going through that right now with my wife's father who is 92 and unable to care for himself. Luckily they have money saved or we would be faced with the difficult decision of paying for elder care or helping pay for our daughters college education.
If you choose not to pay for it yourself through savings or insurance you are simply choosing to let the burden fall on others. Either the government, your children, or possibly your extended church community if they are even willing to take on that burden.
His only answer to the question of who will pay for expenses in old age is to deliberately dump it on his children which I cannot agree with in this day and age.

If I understand correctly, you are admitting that you are allowing the zeitgeist to determine how you view the world and finances. For millenniums, families and communities did not save up for old age and families communities provided for the elderly and infirm. Believe it or not, this traditional way of caring for those in need is still very much alive in Hutterite colonies and many Amish and Mennonite communities who have not taken on the value systems of the surrounding culture. And it is working just fine. Actually better care and better relationships than what most elderly experience in the US.

There are expenses associated with retirement and becoming elderly. Not just the ordinary living expenses when one is too old to work, but also possible expenses associated with long term care. We are going through that right now with my wife's father who is 92 and unable to care for himself. Luckily they have money saved or we would be faced with the difficult decision of paying for elder care or helping pay for our daughters college education.
If you choose not to pay for it yourself through savings or insurance you are simply choosing to let the burden fall on others. Either the government, your children, or possibly your extended church community if they are even willing to take on that burden

Again, there are hundreds of thousands of Christians in the US, and millions of Christians around the world who are caring for their elderly and it is working just fine. And they don’t need to choose between college or elderly because college isn’t even in their equation. And it is not even in their equation because they haven’t bought into values of their host culture, that says every person should be entitled to college and funded by their parents.

I'm simply reading the book and responding to the arguments he makes with some skepticism. I've never met him and don't know anything about him other than what he has put down on the page.
It is also one thing for the odd curmudgeon to live an alternative lifestyle and expect others to pick up the slack. It is another thing entirely to build an entire society on that principle without have a really secure and iron-clad multigenerational contract in place. To some extent that is what Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security are. If you are going to do it within a church it should be pretty explicit. Expecting each family just to deal with it themselves is probably a recipe for failure. Family dynamics can be complex and your children aren't necessarily going to share your values and may have problems of their own. I have seen that kind of thing end in failure.
None of this erases any costs. It just changes who pays for them.

The failure happens when Christian communities start taking on the values of the individualistic host culture around them. Whenever communities stick to principles that have worked for millenniums, it all works just fine.

Recently we took a couple Afghan refugees to Virginia to learn about the central Asia rug making business. They were amazed that a Christian culture here in the USA can exist much like they experienced back home, even though the surrounding culture is trying to impose its values on these Christian communities.

[Ernie]

For example, Eastern Mennonite Missions (Not to be confused with EPMC) used to be one of the strongest Plain Anabaptist missions.

Could you expand on this a little bit? I was a missionary for 4 years with EMM starting 17 years ago and it was a never particularly plain. It's always been the mission board of Lancaster Conference and mapped pretty closely with the movement of the conference.

I am referring to the 1914-maybe 1950. The Earth is the Lord's and Gospel Vs. Gospel chronicles the Plain missions in Africa and Asia how they became not Plain. What you observed in Honduras, is same book different chapter.

[Ernie]

Wife: Since when is Hertzler fine saving up money to buy a house?

To be fair, this is probably a little more complicated because he typically tries not to judge other peoples choices and there’s even some with different views at his church, but he’s not a house buying type of guy, and I’m pretty sure his first book was talking against saving up to buy houses.

I don’t know, maybe his views have changed over the years, but it’s possible that you might just be taking something that he’s trying not to be judgmental on and deciding that he teaches it. it’s also possible that I might be wrong, but that almost never happens, so I’m not gonna believe it without proof.

I asked him about this and to my surprise, he was not opposed to someone saving to buy a house.

I've taken this a step further and wanted any funds that I am saving to buy a house to be used for kingdom advancement and helping other Christians provide for their families, until they are used to buy a house. There are many missions who would benefit from housing, etc. who would be glad to use investment funds or properties for awhile until they are needed by the person who is saving up the funds.
For example, a couple decades ago I worked for a Christian publisher and I arranged to have a lot of Christian books printed and paid for by an investor. The Christian publisher bought the books from the investor as they sold them. The books would never have been published without an arrangement like this.
Now that investor has used the money to buy a house for himself.
So not only was the investor able to buy a house, but thousands of school children benefitted from the books during the time that the money was not needed by the individual.

[Soloist]

I asked him about this and to my surprise, he was not opposed to someone saving to buy a house.

Ask him why he rejected generous offers to own his home next time you speak.

I've taken this a step further and wanted any funds that I am saving to buy a house to be used for kingdom advancement and helping other Christians provide for their families, until they are used to buy a house. There are many missions who would benefit from housing, etc. who would be glad to use investment funds or properties for awhile until they are needed by the person who is saving up the funds.
For example, I arranged to have a lot of Christian books printed some years ago and paid for by an investor. The Christian publisher bought the books from the investor as they sold them. The books would never have been published without an arrangement like this.
Now that investor has used the money to buy a house for himself.
So not only was the individual able to buy a house, but thousands of school children benefitted from the books during the time that the money was not needed by the individual.

He has never to my knowledge, condemned the saving of money for specific need or item. He rejects the notion of saving for retirement though.
He certainly does question building bigger barns, buying more land so that you can eventually have more money to give.

[Ernie]

3. The alternative to not paying for this sort of long-term care is expecting one of your children to quit their job to take care of you full time, 24/7. That has its own costs and implications. And is a tremendous burden to put on anyone. Especially if they have their own obligations apart from you.

Only if you have bought into the world's way of thinking...
There are millions of families and communities that take care of old people 24/7.
Many Christian wives don't have jobs, so they don't have to quit a job. Young people and retired people help out also.

[Ernie]

I asked him about this and to my surprise, he was not opposed to someone saving to buy a house.

Ask him why he rejected generous offers to own his home next time you speak.

I'm sure he has good reasons.
I have a friend who wanted to live like Peter Waldo.
But he didn't want his wife to be houseless if he died early, so he put the house in her name. He is part of a community that expects people to save money for retirement so he didn't want to put unnecessary burden on his children or the church.
Today he enjoys the freedom of not having earthly possessions in his name that could possibly steal some affections from his heart. He has stories to tell of how he arrived at this decision.