Farewell MC-USA: Mosaic's Departure from the Denomination

[Ernie]

Here is an example of why I think using Marpeck as a role model for political involvement is a stretch and even unfair...


Engaging in politics is forcing the minority to do what the majority wants done, and that is the exact opposite of what Marpeck believed and taught.

Someone should write an article about the moderate and progressive attempts at revisionist history, in which they make Marpeck out to be a supporter of their rightwing and leftwing political involvements.

If you really want to trade barbs on revisionist history, I think that would get ugly.

Especially when you know or should know that I am not advocating for political movements. And that I am pretty careful with facts.

Maybe there are better ways to discuss these things, even when we do sometimes have different understandings of Scripture or history?

I may be wrong but I didn't understand Ernie to be targeting you with that post.

Correct.

[RZehr]

…I don't believe everything I read in The Martyr's Mirror.

I’m curious what part of the Martyr’s Mirror is fake news.

[Josh]

In fact, I'd say that a LOT of Mennonite History, across the spectrum, has been written by idealists who see history through a certain lens. I don't believe everything I read in the books that motivated me to become a Mennonite, I don't believe everything I read in The Martyr's Mirror. Maybe a little idealistic revisionism is a common flaw for human beings.

i agree with this. Even writers I respect tend to put a slant on things and project onto ancient writers what they want to see in them. An example of this is we Anabaptists talking about early church fathers.

[Josh]

How might a person be involved or engaged in civil politics in ways that do not involve coercion?

Town waterworks comes to mind. Although the billing manager might have to put liens on properties and shut off people’s water. I couldn’t do that.

Another would be the road repair crew - the majority of our township’s budget is for road repairs. The township hall and garage are right next to one of our church members who has a sizeable construction business. As I understand it, he has lent them equipment and other useful things when they needed it to help support the township’s work maintaining a great deal of roads. (Most the budget comes from a licence-plate fee of $15 per year which doesn’t seem too coercive.)

[Ernie]

How might a person be involved or engaged in civil politics in ways that do not involve coercion?

Town waterworks comes to mind. Although the billing manager might have to put liens on properties and shut off people’s water. I couldn’t do that.

Another would be the road repair crew - the majority of our township’s budget is for road repairs. The township hall and garage are right next to one of our church members who has a sizeable construction business. As I understand it, he has lent them equipment and other useful things when they needed it to help support the township’s work maintaining a great deal of roads. (Most the budget comes from a licence-plate fee of $15 per year which doesn’t seem too coercive.)

Ok. We must have different definitions in mind for the same terms.

I don't view being a janitor at a courthouse, or a teacher at a public school, or an engineer for the water department as engaging in civil politics.

I do view putting liens on properties, shutting off people's water, issuing fines, and being part of a governing body that oversees such laws as being involved in coercion and therefore being outside of the roles that Christians should be participating in. In my mind, the same is true for signing petitions, voting in elections, blocking roads during protests, etc.

[Josh]

The County Engineer is sometimes an elected position and focuses on things like drainage, flooding, road repairs and so on.

[Neto]

…I don't believe everything I read in The Martyr's Mirror.

I’m curious what part of the Martyr’s Mirror is fake news.

I automatically think of stories like the one where a man "prophesied" that after they chopped off his head, it would roll over and do something impossible - What was it, laugh? There are other stories in there that seem highly unlikely. The editor was just reporting the stories that had been told over and over in the decades that followed the purported events, until the time of the compilation.

[Ernie]

The County Engineer is sometimes an elected position and focuses on things like drainage, flooding, road repairs and so on.

If this position does not require the person to issue fines or help make laws punishable by fines or jail time, then I would be fine with a Christian having this position or even voting for someone to hold this position.

[Szdfan]

The County Engineer is sometimes an elected position and focuses on things like drainage, flooding, road repairs and so on.

If this position does not require the person to issue fines or help make laws punishable by fines or jail time, then I would be fine with a Christian having this position or even voting for someone to hold this position.

What's the difference between coercion from civil government and coercion from the church?

[ken_sylvania]

The County Engineer is sometimes an elected position and focuses on things like drainage, flooding, road repairs and so on.

If this position does not require the person to issue fines or help make laws punishable by fines or jail time, then I would be fine with a Christian having this position or even voting for someone to hold this position.

What's the difference between coercion from civil government and coercion from the church?

One of the big differences is that the church doesn't kill people or put them in jail. Nor does the church confiscate people's houses or bank accounts.