Are the Turtles Beating us?

[Neto]

My conclusion is that we are always going to have people who think they can do it despite history.
Inevitably the outcome will be almost the same every time.

I think that the goal (a "pure" church) is still the right attitude for us as Christians. If we do not strive for it, we certainly will never reach it. And, it is not to be done in our own 'power', which is woefully insufficient. As Paul says, "I struggle, with all of HIS energy, which so powerfully works in ME."

[Soloist]

I think that the goal (a "pure" church) is still the right attitude for us as Christians. If we do not strive for it, we certainly will never reach it. And, it is not to be done in our own 'power', which is woefully insufficient. As Paul says, "I struggle, with all of HIS energy, which so powerfully works in ME."

I wasn’t referring to that. My point is that we are constantly trying to remake the CM model and repeatedly we see things that look good initially to those who see problems with the CM model. It’s not saying that the intent is wrong but how many attempts have been made that ended up with serious problems in the first generation?

More of an off hand comment.

[Sudsy]

My conclusion is that we are always going to have people who think they can do it despite history.
Inevitably the outcome will be almost the same every time.

I can't talk further at the moment but could you explain what the 'do it' is in your post ? I think I agree but I want to make sure I've understood you correctly.

[Neto]

I think that the goal (a "pure" church) is still the right attitude for us as Christians. If we do not strive for it, we certainly will never reach it. And, it is not to be done in our own 'power', which is woefully insufficient. As Paul says, "I struggle, with all of HIS energy, which so powerfully works in ME."

I wasn’t referring to that. My point is that we are constantly trying to remake the CM model and repeatedly we see things that look good initially to those who see problems with the CM model. It’s not saying that the intent is wrong but how many attempts have been made that ended up with serious problems in the first generation?

More of an off hand comment.

As my grandson used to say (when he was very young) "My 'pogies' (apologies). I wondered a bit what you were referring to, but then still erroneously concluded that you were responding to the post directly before yours.

[Soloist]

My conclusion is that we are always going to have people who think they can do it despite history.
Inevitably the outcome will be almost the same every time.

I can't talk further at the moment but could you explain what the 'do it' is in your post ? I think I agree but I want to make sure I've understood you correctly.

Solve the problems with the conservative Mennonite, Amish or old order. Charity thought they could, indirectly the General Conference thought they could, repeatedly the drift is to try to fix the problems.
I’m not saying its not good to try to fix them, but if we try and claim we will be different and do the same basic things…
The problems I’m speaking of are seekers, purity, stability, and retention.
The options from the non-conservatives are not appealing to fix those problems. All of those except stability drop the more freedom/personal conviction alone you get

[Josh]

My conclusion is that we are always going to have people who think they can do it despite history.
Inevitably the outcome will be almost the same every time.

I can't talk further at the moment but could you explain what the 'do it' is in your post ? I think I agree but I want to make sure I've understood you correctly.

Solve the problems with the conservative Mennonite, Amish or old order. Charity thought they could, indirectly the General Conference thought they could, repeatedly the drift is to try to fix the problems.
I’m not saying its not good to try to fix them, but if we try and claim we will be different and do the same basic things…
The problems I’m speaking of are seekers, purity, stability, and retention.
The options from the non-conservatives are not appealing to fix those problems. All of those except stability drop the more freedom/personal conviction alone you get

Stability drops, too.

[Soloist]

Stability drops, too.

I was referring to evangelicals. Those churches seem to stick around a long time with high transition rates.

[Sudsy]

My conclusion is that we are always going to have people who think they can do it despite history.
Inevitably the outcome will be almost the same every time.

I can't talk further at the moment but could you explain what the 'do it' is in your post ? I think I agree but I want to make sure I've understood you correctly.

Solve the problems with the conservative Mennonite, Amish or old order. Charity thought they could, indirectly the General Conference thought they could, repeatedly the drift is to try to fix the problems.
I’m not saying its not good to try to fix them, but if we try and claim we will be different and do the same basic things…
The problems I’m speaking of are seekers, purity, stability, and retention.
The options from the non-conservatives are not appealing to fix those problems. All of those except stability drop the more freedom/personal conviction alone you get

Thankyou. Still not sure I'm understanding you but that seems to be happening more often as I get old.

The basic problem I have with what are referred to as 'conservative' faith groups is in their quest to be holy, their approach is not drawing many to the Lord. We are to shine our light in such a way through good works that others will be drawn to believe in Jesus. I believe some of the ways churches go with their sanctification does not do this but often results in their light not attracting lost souls. Rather than their light shining it is hid under a bushel of their sanctification, their set apartness from the very world Christ desires to save.

So instead of being productive in reaching the lost, they are all taken up with who is the best sanctified and much of this has to do with outward appearances. It tends to look more like a 'Pharisee' type of religion rather than the 'Good Samaritan' type.

This is not to say 'non-conservative' types are models to follow either and some present a salvation that does not reflect much, if any at times, 'new creation' in a person.

I was raised in a church that did have expectations on what being sanctified would look like but they also recognized that there is a spiritual growth to be had in this area and it should not be forced but rather encouraged by what it does in one's own life. However, most came from unchurched backgrounds and what was most important to them was to reach their acquaintances and others who also need Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. There was a bit of this judging others in how sanctified they were but the main focus was not on this but rather growing the Kingdom.

When a church becomes primarily about me and us all agreeing to believe and look a certain way and they lose their zeal to reach the lost, imo, they have gone off mission. How some Anabaptists can get back on this mission especially with the ethnic challenge they have, imo, will only have a chance if they really take a keen interest in the salvation of others of all ethnic backgrounds.

I realize others here don't share my view but I'll keep putting it out there because I have partnered with Mennonites in reaching the lost and seen them become soul winners. One of my best friends was raised as a Mennonite Brethren and he lead more peoiple to the Lord in our city than anyone I know of. He was able to retire very early in life and spent his days finding ways to reach out to others with the Gospel. I miss him and look forward to our reunion some day soon.

[Josh]

I don’t where it says in the NT that we should dress immodestly, disobey 1 Cor. 11 about head coverings, and disobey teachings on not wearing gold or costly garments in order to “reach the lost”.

This frankly seems like a false choice.

[Soloist]

Thankyou. Still not sure I'm understanding you but that seems to be happening more often as I get old.

The basic problem I have with what are referred to as 'conservative' faith groups is in their quest to be holy, their approach is not drawing many to the Lord. We are to shine our light in such a way through good works that others will be drawn to believe in Jesus. I believe some of the ways churches go with their sanctification does not do this but often results in their light not attracting lost souls. Rather than their light shining it is hid under a bushel of their sanctification, their set apartness from the very world Christ desires to save.

So instead of being productive in reaching the lost, they are all taken up with who is the best sanctified and much of this has to do with outward appearances. It tends to look more like a 'Pharisee' type of religion rather than the 'Good Samaritan' type.

This is not to say 'non-conservative' types are models to follow either and some present a salvation that does not reflect much, if any at times, 'new creation' in a person.

I was raised in a church that did have expectations on what being sanctified would look like but they also recognized that there is a spiritual growth to be had in this area and it should not be forced but rather encouraged by what it does in one's own life. However, most came from unchurched backgrounds and what was most important to them was to reach their acquaintances and others who also need Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. There was a bit of this judging others in how sanctified they were but the main focus was not on this but rather growing the Kingdom.

When a church becomes primarily about me and us all agreeing to believe and look a certain way and they lose their zeal to reach the lost, imo, they have gone off mission. How some Anabaptists can get back on this mission especially with the ethnic challenge they have, imo, will only have a chance if they really take a keen interest in the salvation of others of all ethnic backgrounds.

I realize others here don't share my view but I'll keep putting it out there because I have partnered with Mennonites in reaching the lost and seen them become soul winners. One of my best friends was raised as a Mennonite Brethren and he lead more peoiple to the Lord in our city than anyone I know of. He was able to retire very early in life and spent his days finding ways to reach out to others with the Gospel. I miss him and look forward to our reunion some day soon.

yeah, your views get people to indulge
their flesh and get away with it here resulting eternal condemnation.
As I said

The options from the non-conservatives are not appealing to fix those problems. All of those except stability drop the more freedom/personal conviction alone you get