HPV and Cancer link

[Ken]

It is generally not the schools. Only Rhode Island, Virginia, and DC include the HPV vaccine in the list of required school vaccines.

Can you explain to us how a school has any right at all to demand children be vaccinated for an STD?

Last I checked, sexual activity isn’t supposed to be happening at schools.

It isn't the schools, it is the state legislatures. And in probably every state they have a Constitutional obligation to promote the public health and welfare of their states and citizenry. And this includes the eradication of deadly infectious diseases.

Thankfully very few people share your belief that infectious diseases and cancers are designed by God to be earthly punishments for certain acts that you disapprove of.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Refusing a potentially lifesaving vaccine is sin. I am calling it out. It is no different than failing to treat any other illness you come across. It is doing harm. Maybe you did not hear this before your first clinical rotation:

"Above all, do no harm"

Refusing to treat for a future illness is sin. Period. This kind of stuff has consequences. Maybe withholding prenatal care for unwed mothers next on the agenda?

You are condemning brothers for standing for righteousness.

I don't see this as standing for "righteousness" at all. I see it as someone who is an absolutist trying to push an opinion that we should refuse preventive care for children just so they can be more completely punished for their improbity. I see this as a subchristian position that should be called out for what it is. However can you come to the conclusion that YOU making people suffer for sin is an acceptable view. If that is your view, you are usurping God's prerogative to punish sin. That is not our place.

I’ve chosen a path to walk as best I know how, trying not to condemn others who believe differently on extrabiblical teachings or ideas.

And I very much think you are wrong on this one, and represents a teaching so radical that even the pope rejects it. You have been taking others to task for the last 5 pages. You have been condemning Ken all along, Give me a break

Do you represent the rest of your ministry with this concept?[/quote]

I represent only myself. The conference does not take a stand on this matter one way or another. I checked this out years ago before I joined, each individual it entitled to his own understanding based on Scripture. I, in fact, somewhat disagree with my Pastor on this.

I can’t imagine any Mennonite church or conference taking a hardline stance like this[/quote]

It doesn't, as I have said, my views are my own and do not reflect the conference which has no position. But you call my stance hardline?

It’s ridiculous. You would lose your ordination in our churches or get excommunicated for trying to fight this.

On what grounds? Because you don't like it? If it is not in the conferences guidelines do you think people will make things up on the spot? It simply does not work that way. Do you think my views are unique, if you do I think you would be quite surprised. I can defend my views both medically and Biblically. My views on antivaxism are quite well known, If someone does not want to hear my views don't engage me on the topic.

We’re supposed to create room for personal conscience other than our own black and white thinking.

you sure do not find space to accommodate Ken. I very much agree with most of his position on this.

I seem to recall you saying I was OCD basically by calling me out for my stance… are you sure it’s not the kettle calling the pot black?

My stance is the mainstream stance in most of the Bible believing Christian world. Understand you are the outlier.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Refusing a potentially lifesaving vaccine is sin. I am calling it out. It is no different than failing to treat any other illness you come across. It is doing harm. Maybe you did not hear this before your first clinical rotation:

I think accepting a vaccine made using stem cell research is sin.

"Above all, do no harm"

Refusing to treat for a future illness is sin. Period. This kind of stuff has consequences. Maybe withholding prenatal care for unwed mothers next on the agenda?

“Refusing to treat for a future illness is sin” - can you show me where the Bible teaches this? The HPV vaccine in particular really stretches this. I do not see where the Bible teaches “it’s a sin not to take a vaccine that makes you less likely to get a disease that overwhelmingly results from fornication”.

I would not be so sure of calling it an STD. Just saying. And if you think it is your place to punish sin by withholding treatment, why stop here? There are hoards of sinners that need to be punished. Maybe denying pain relief to unwed mothers? It has been done, before it was outlawed.

To know to do good, and fail to do it is sin.

[Judas Maccabeus]

P.3:

you do you

If-only .. If only ..
These vaccines represent a great example of where “you do you” (without being hounded to the last breath) applies.
Overall risk is low, for celibate children+individuals as described in this thread,, extremely low, choices should be respected.

If only ..
The world was as interested in introducing SCRIPTURAL TRUTH as “every description deviancy” imaginable, so much confusion and misery could be prevented.

Who is negligent?

Who is hounding you to the last breath? Some random person on the internet?

It is generally not the schools. Only Rhode Island, Virginia, and DC include the HPV vaccine in the list of required school vaccines. Some schools might run general vaccination clinics but most don't. Certainly not around here. The school nurses have enough on their plates just trying to track the required vaccines and prescription medications.

Your child's doctor? The one you see once a year for a 15 minute well child check? It is their job to promote preventative medicine.

I don't think anyone is being hounded to death about the HPV vaccine. But they are hopefully being informed.

Per one of my friends new in town, Hopkins peds. will not accept new patients for well child care unless the patient's parents are willing to vaccinate as per the CDC schedule. They apparently feel that these unvaccinated children are potential Measles vectors, and are choosing (rightly, I believe) to protect the majority of their patients.

Someone I know just enrolled their child with Hopkins Peds. That is the source of the info. A doctor does not HAVE to accept a patient wishing care on a non-emergent basis. I suspect this may not be the norm, but if we have an outbreak, it may well be.

[temporal1]

i believe this topic has been specific to the HPV vaccine, not about measles or other.
i have no sense that anyone posting is sharply against the HPV vaccine, but see it as best decided on an individual basis.

[Ken]

i believe this topic has been specific to the HPV vaccine, not about measles or other.
i have no sense that anyone posting is sharply against the HPV vaccine, but see it as best decided on an individual basis.

No one is deciding whether or not to take the HPV vaccine on an INDIVIDUAL basis.

They are deciding whether or not OTHERS should take it. Namely the children under their care. If YOU choose not to vaccinate your children it is not YOU that will pay the price in the unlikely event that your children become infected with whatever disease you chose not to vaccinate them against. It is your children who will pay the price for your decision.

If it was only an individual decision then there wouldn't be much to discuss.

[temporal1]

i wrote:
i believe this topic has been specific to the HPV vaccine, not about measles or other.
i have no sense that anyone posting is sharply against the HPV vaccine, but see it as best decided on an individual [family] basis.

Families exist because minors/dependents need legal protection+shelter, RZehr and others have described their views very well, for anyone interested in learning. Children+teens are not small adults.

Some believe parents should have the last word in child mutilation chemicals+procedures - in cases of perceived transgender confusion. Causing 100% deliberate physical and emotional harm. Yet fuss over parents passing on very low risk of HPV.

Whatever the lib scripts prescribe.

[Soloist]

I don't see this as standing for "righteousness" at all. I see it as someone who is an absolutist trying to push an opinion that we should refuse preventive care for children just so they can be more completely punished for their improbity. I see this as a subchristian position that should be called out for what it is. However can you come to the conclusion that YOU making people suffer for sin is an acceptable view. If that is your view, you are usurping God's prerogative to punish sin. That is not our place.

First, you are entitled to your opinion. The reason I object is not to punish my children. Don’t exaggerate my position.
You would have to have lived under a rock the last 20 years to not hear Christians objecting to the HPV vaccine. Some accepted it and some didn’t. Your position is mainstream, I agree. Conservative Mennonite is far far from mainstream on many issues and you of course know this so you can drop the dramatic language. This particular vaccine is objected to more broadly among the conservatives and I would speculate it’s close to at least a 70/30 against split.
General vaccines is likely a 80/20 for/against with fetal cell derived vaccines coming close to a 60/40 split.

And I very much think you are wrong on this one, and represents a teaching so radical that even the pope rejects it. You have been taking others to task for the last 5 pages. You have been condemning Ken all along, Give me a break

Really? I think you need to reread who the primary people arguing with Ken are. I stated my position, quibbled over very little points, conceded Ken was right on some aspects. I think you are just lumping everyone together and saying it’s me.

I represent only myself. The conference does not take a stand on this matter one way or another. I checked this out years ago before I joined, each individual it entitled to his own understanding based on Scripture. I, in fact, somewhat disagree with my Pastor on this.

Well thankfully you aren’t in charge then of the agreed standards.

It doesn't, as I have said, my views are my own and do not reflect the conference which has no position. But you call my stance hardline?

You can’t take communion with someone in rebellion or living in sin although if I had to guess, you do under your standards but for the sake of keeping peace they don’t talk to you

On what grounds? Because you don't like it? If it is not in the conferences guidelines do you think people will make things up on the spot? It simply does not work that way. Do you think my views are unique, if you do I think you would be quite surprised. I can defend my views both medically and Biblically. My views on antivaxism are quite well known, If someone does not want to hear my views don't engage me on the topic.

If you start making conflict with those who are not in favor of vaccination for almost any reason, it will eventually result in action being taken against you. Either you are living in peace with unvaccinated people in your church or you are not. Perhaps your aggressive actions has caused those who disagree with you to keep silent for it is a matter of conscience and they, not you, desire to live in peace with their brother.

you sure do not find space to accommodate Ken. I very much agree with most of his position on this.

Ken doesn’t identify as conservative Mennonite and as I already pointed out, you are twisting the responses into one entity.

My stance is the mainstream stance in most of the Bible believing Christian world. Understand you are the outlier.

Of course I am. For a very long time as it still is, those who follow God faithfully are walking the narrow road and many are walking the broad road regardless of what they call themselves.

Among the conservatives, I am not the outlier. Among medically trained, I only know a few but every nurse in the conservatives and doctors would make room for my views. In fact, the nurse in my community and my prior community agrees with me. Also as I’ve referenced before, so does the doctor who wrote that series of articles.
You referenced the pope, not that he actually is any special figure to us, but until they remove the official stance of personal convictions on vaccines and fetal cells, I think the Catholics would be on my side for “tolerance” of both sides.

I can speak for several churches, mostly from the west coast, but my statements basically line up with general views of the north west American churches of the conservative slant.

[Josh]

Per one of my friends new in town, Hopkins peds. will not accept new patients for well child care unless the patient's parents are willing to vaccinate as per the CDC schedule. They apparently feel that these unvaccinated children are potential Measles vectors, and are choosing (rightly, I believe) to protect the majority of their patients.

Someone I know just enrolled their child with Hopkins Peds. That is the source of the info. A doctor does not HAVE to accept a patient wishing care on a non-emergent basis.

I’m glad the Cleveland Clinic respects parents and patients being able to make their own medical decisions, and doesn’t try to force the rather questionable modern CDC schedule on patients.

I suspect this may not be the norm, but if we have an outbreak, it may well be.

An outbreak of HPV among children? If that happens, I’d call the police, not Merck.

[temporal1]

Soloist:
I can speak for several churches, mostly from the west coast,

but my statements basically line up with general views of the north west American churches of the conservative slant.

i appreciate your overall response above, this part reflects RZehr’s OP and his additional posts, he with young children.
altho i’m still surprised “HPV and Cancer link” was new to him. reports and effects (push to vaccinate withoout regard to individual lives, religious beliefs, etc.) have been around for years.

i asked my daughter about her experience with their pediatrician, she said he became aggressive and angry that she chose to pass on this one vaccine. 5 years ago? i’d read about it before it came up.

i do not see analogies to measles (or child mutilation measures) as valid.
measles is highly contagious for everyone, no personal contact of any kind needed. as are other childhood-centric diseases.

i’m dismayed how U.S. legal citizens are required to have so many vaccines, with all formal records, documents, etc., yet hoards of fully undocumented folks are allowed entry - with corresponding outbreaks of measles, even TB. reports are deliberately tampered with to a great extent, keeping the public as uninformed as possible (wrt both disease and crime).

my 16 year old grdaughter has had so many required/recommended vaccines from birth, i couldn’t count, including for COVID, the idea her family would not have a say in this particular one, without pressure to comply, is a bit much.

i must have been about 4 when the polio vaccine became available.
i was so young, but i remember my mother’s excitement. she couldn’t get all of us in line fast enough!
those mysterious pink-stained sugar cubes. we weren’t allowed much sugar, so, memorable! exotic. lol

i had more than one type of measles, mumps, chicken pox. HORRIBLE memories.
there were other awful diseases around .. whooping cough, scarlet fever, and more.
being a parent in those days was terrifying. death lurking ..

my children had chicken pox, were spared the others.

my grdaughter didn’t have chicken pox.

she has had so many vaccinations! like a pin cushion. what is right??!

all things considered, knowing my family as i do, i’m glad her parents have chosen to pass on Gardasil.
as others are saying regarding this topic, that doesn’t mean “forever,” “no matter circumstances.”
for the present. for the precious present.