I understand your frustration! Although from a different perspective.... For me its less about "modern Israel" and more about reading Gods intentions for the "how" he plans to restore His Creation from Genesis to Revelations. If Israel is spelled out in the Bible as a integral part of His plan (no matter how sinful they are) then it must be important too Him and thus its important to me. I dont think this makes me a Zionist but perhaps you disagree. I can appreciate how Christians can work together in love and community as they help their neighbors, feed the poor, and spread Christ to the world in a unified effort of good deeds. But I think the reason we put so much energy into these questions is because we would like to all be unified in theology and how we read the Bible as well. I think that is a noble thing to pursue.mike wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 5:26 pmThat's precisely the way I see it.Josh wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 3:42 pm My perspective is that many Israelites accepted Christ and indeed created what is now the church. They were the first Christians.
The unbelievers perished in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed, never to be rebuilt again. The continuation of “Israel” in the church and Christians, going all the way back to those first Jews who believed.
The modern day state of Israel has nothing at all to do with biblical prophecy or God’s promises - it is a country just like Lebanon or Syria or Jordan or Egypt or Gaza or the West Bank. It has no special spiritual significance.
The incredible amount of energy that has been expended by many Christians in the last couple of generations in support of modern Israel, the study of prophetic and apocalyptic writings in the Bible with a view to read current events back into the text, and the unbelievable proliferation of books, conferences, sermons, and discussion on the topic have all done little to nothing to advance the kingdom of heaven. All this may even have been one of the greatest detriments to the Christian faith in the recent past, who knows.
So, if I'm hearing how you and Josh interpret this. You believe that God is working through Rome to destroy the city of Jerusalem in AD70 for the purpose of crushing the unbelieving Jews. Are we to believe all the believing Jews were saved in this massacre and the unbelieving slain, thus leaving the remnant? Or does the remnant represent the "True Israel" of Jews and Gentiles, as previously mentioned, who survive. If so, how does it explain the churches persecution following all this. I have a hard time believing the blessings for Israel as represented in the OT equate to the Church as the true Israel who then also experienced massacre as well. It doesn't make sense for me to believe that God looks down happily as His Christian citizens suffer at the hands of persecutors even if they persevere through to death.
Also, how would this work with Zechariah 12:8 which I stated earlier? Are we to take it that where it says the Lord would defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem. It really means He's going to gut it with the Roman army?