Christians and Trans

[Sudsy]

And furthermore treating something that God sees as an abomination as wrong or calling it a sexual perversion might not “feel” compassionate but it can be much more compassionate of an action than most anything else. If someone doesn’t know they need to repent wouldn’t we be as Christian’s excited to let them know?!

I believe there are different approaches to getting the message of salvation across to people and that God alone knows the heart of each one of us and what words will best speak to our hearts. I have used various 'soul winning' methods like the 'Way of the Master' and 'Coral Ridge Method', etc. and I believe what is the most needful in any method use is the guidance of the Holy Spirit. He may lead us into using a certain approach for one person quite different from another or take us into certain areas beyond the packaged approach.

When it comes to what all God sees as an abomination there are a variety of sins that scripture refers to in this way. Seems to me we can get hung up on some far more than others and it would seem those having to do with sex are given far more discussion. If we are going to get into what God hates then perhaps a good start would be Proverbs 6:16-19 where 7 of these sins are listed. God is very focused on the sins of our heart where we can even be guilty of murder. Here is a link to the Proverbs text and some explanation of those sins God hates. Perhaps we should have some discussions on these and consider what Jesus said about casting stones at the sins of others.

https://www.gotquestions.org/seven-thin ... hates.html

Perhaps someone here could share their experience of pointing out a sexual sin of an unbeliever and it has resulted in them being born again. In the Way of the Master method it uses a variety of sin examples taken from the 10 commandments to assist people to recognize what God calls sin. The Coral Ridge method begins with finding out why a person thinks God will allow them into His heaven and then takes it from there to address our self righteousness using scriptures. There are many suggested ways to lead people to Christ, that is not the main problem. I believe the main problem is our lack of real concern for the souls of others.

[HondurasKeiser]

When they were sorting through the confusion and wanted help, do you think they went to the harsh relatives who had shut them off completely? Did they go to the ones who had (outwardly at least) smiled and said "Oh that's great!" No, they went to the ones who had respectfully established where they stood and why, yet continued to treat them with dignity and respect.

this makes a lot of sense to me.

So, Christians should tell someone who comes out as homosexual “That’s great!”?

Josh, read to the end of Verity's post, please.

Verity gave an emphatic No! to the "That's great" option.

[Bootstrap]

It's really easy to look "out there" and bemoan all the confusion and perversion in the world around us. We need to look closer- in our groups, congregations, schools and homes. Even without the direct influence of the media, these issues are real among our own. Do our young people have safe places to go when life is confusing? Do they have confidence that when abuse is happening that there are those who will protect and defend them? Perhaps not every case of gender confusion stems from abuse, but an awful lot of it does. Gender confusion is only a symptom of a much bigger, much older problem that as a church has not been handled well at all.

I appreciated your entire post, Verity. I especially want to highlight this part - we really do need to be focusing on what God is calling us to, how we can be salt and light, perhaps even to people in our own churches.

That's the hard work of being the Kingdom of God.

[Josh]

this makes a lot of sense to me.

So, Christians should tell someone who comes out as homosexual “That’s great!”?

Josh, read to the end of Verity's post, please.

Verity gave an emphatic No! to the "That's great" option.

Thanks, HK. I re-read and see I misunderstood what she wrote.

After being accused of being a liar and ken_s’s comment of “someone must have bullwhipped me into the kingdom”, and then Verity herself asking me if I’m autistic, I just sort of tuned that stuff out. To be frank, it’s quite hurtful to respond to someone with:

- accusing them of being a liar, quoting a scripture thereof
- questioning how I could even be a Christian without being “bullwhipped”
- asking me if I’m autistic

I have found it best not to respond to people who go for personal attacks like that. So, thank you for bringing to my attention that I did make a mistake.

[Verity]

So, Christians should tell someone who comes out as homosexual “That’s great!”?

Josh, read to the end of Verity's post, please.

Verity gave an emphatic No! to the "That's great" option.

Thanks, HK. I re-read and see I misunderstood what she wrote.

After being accused of being a liar and ken_s’s comment of “someone must have bullwhipped me into the kingdom”, and then Verity herself asking me if I’m autistic, I just sort of tuned that stuff out. To be frank, it’s quite hurtful to respond to someone with:

- accusing them of being a liar, quoting a scripture thereof
- questioning how I could even be a Christian without being “bullwhipped”
- asking me if I’m autistic

I have found it best not to respond to people who go for personal attacks like that. So, thank you for bringing to my attention that I did make a mistake.

Josh, I am sorry. It was not a personal attack at all. I was curious, respectfully so. I have a child who is neurodivergent, a sibling, an uncle, cousins and several close friends. It does NOT mean autistic. Someone with ADHD or ADD is considered neurodivergent. Personally I hate labels, but they can help us to understand one another at times, especially when we are not relating face to face in real life. I work in health care and have for years so this is not something I am hazy about. People who are neurodivergent are highly intelligent (my uncle hold 5 degrees). They see life through a different perspective than many of us, and that is valuable. I consider you highly intelligent, and also, based on your posts, consider you seeing life from a different angle than many of us. My friends who found out as adults said it was a relief- liberating- rather than demeaning. My question was not intended as a slam at all. Will you forgive me for not being more clear in what I was wondering?

I do respect and appreciate you. We don't click with our questions and responses each time, but that's okay. We are here to learn.

Blessings, Brother.

[Verity]

Sudsy, Ned-

It is only through Jesus in me that I can relate and respond to trans and others with a spirit of grace and compassion. Neon hair colors, graphic or obscene clothing, multiple piercings and tattoos- these are all hard on my flesh to absorb and handle. I've sat through counseling sessions where the language grew so strong that it was constant prayer that kept me from retching in the midst of the session. People are hurting, deeply. Some will push us to our absolute limit and beyond, watching to see if we have more than ME to carry us through. They know where our strength comes from.

Ned, I do get frank and raw with those who want to hear. Jesus told us to not cast pearls before swine. Those are strong words, but I understand His message to be that we must not force truth on a closed heart. People need to first see as as fellow humans who care about them before the cracks start appearing in their heart. That's why I keep in touch with people who are shunned by most others- they show me their cracks. They are vulnerable with me and when they want Truth, raw hard solid truth, they come asking for it knowing I will give it. They listen, knowing I really love them.

What turns a lot of people off is having truth- good Biblical absolutes- shoved down their throats by people they know are not living truth. Emerson said "What you do is shouting so loud I can't hear what you are saying". I sat under the preaching of a man who was living in his own sexual perversions. He preached hard about how sexual perverts- such as his gay child- were going to hell. Nary a word was said about his own perversion and plausible factors to his child's choices. I walked out, was later rebuked for it, and forced to listen to nearly an hour long tirade about how God hated the child I was in contact with. "If you love their soul you will tell them first thing next time how they are bound for HELL".

I don't need to tell them that. They know it. They've been through more hell on earth than most of us have. But had I dared to show the dad from God's Word, using the identical passages he used to condemn his child, I would have received far worse than a tirade.

We are known by our fruits. God help us to live the Gospel and draw all men to Him.

[Josh]

Josh, I am sorry. It was not a personal attack at all. I was curious, respectfully so. I have a child who is neurodivergent, a sibling, an uncle, cousins and several close friends. It does NOT mean autistic. Someone with ADHD or ADD is considered neurodivergent. Personally I hate labels, but they can help us to understand one another at times, especially when we are not relating face to face in real life. I work in health care and have for years so this is not something I am hazy about. People who are neurodivergent are highly intelligent (my uncle hold 5 degrees). They see life through a different perspective than many of us, and that is valuable. I consider you highly intelligent, and also, based on your posts, consider you seeing life from a different angle than many of us. My friends who found out as adults said it was a relief- liberating- rather than demeaning. My question was not intended as a slam at all. Will you forgive me for not being more clear in what I was wondering?

I do respect and appreciate you. We don't click with our questions and responses each time, but that's okay. We are here to learn.

Blessings, Brother.

OK, I will supply an etiquette lesson at no charge. Whilst you use the term “neurodivergent”, generally speaking, asking someone if they are autistic because they disagreed with you is rude and unkind, and is next door to asking “Are you retarded?” It is also rather rude to ask someone questions like in public on an open forum.

“Neurodivergent” is not a term with any clinical meaning, and is basically a made up term by some people who want to recast various behavioural disorders and other problems as something else.

For someone who hates labels, you sure were eager to ask me if any labels apply to me. It is also untrue that people who are autistic, ADD, or ADHD are “highly intelligent”; on average they have lower IQ than an average person. Generally speaking, having a behavioural disorder or a mental defect does not make someone “highly intelligent”.

It is true I bring a different perspective to this forum, and that is mostly because a decision I made to do so. This is a place for open debate and honest discussion. It is not a therapy forum, a self help forum, a church, or a place to seek pastoral counselling.

We have several posters here who promote false doctrine. We have several here who think promoting homosexuality and transsexuality is a good thing. And we have several who fail to grasp Anabaptist values at all, instead seeing this as an outlet for expressing the latest right wing conservative click bait. Participating in such a context means being ready to engage in difficult debate.

The typical conservative Mennonite response is to withdraw from a space like this and not debate at all. I decided not to do that.

[ken_sylvania]

So, Christians should tell someone who comes out as homosexual “That’s great!”?

Josh, read to the end of Verity's post, please.

Verity gave an emphatic No! to the "That's great" option.

Thanks, HK. I re-read and see I misunderstood what she wrote.

After being accused of being a liar and ken_s’s comment of “someone must have bullwhipped me into the kingdom”, and then Verity herself asking me if I’m autistic, I just sort of tuned that stuff out. To be frank, it’s quite hurtful to respond to someone with:

- accusing them of being a liar, quoting a scripture thereof
- questioning how I could even be a Christian without being “bullwhipped”
- asking me if I’m autistic

I have found it best not to respond to people who go for personal attacks like that. So, thank you for bringing to my attention that I did make a mistake.

I'm sorry, my language was too aggressive. I should have found a more gracious way to communicate.

[Verity]

Josh, I am sorry. It was not a personal attack at all. I was curious, respectfully so. I have a child who is neurodivergent, a sibling, an uncle, cousins and several close friends. It does NOT mean autistic. Someone with ADHD or ADD is considered neurodivergent. Personally I hate labels, but they can help us to understand one another at times, especially when we are not relating face to face in real life. I work in health care and have for years so this is not something I am hazy about. People who are neurodivergent are highly intelligent (my uncle hold 5 degrees). They see life through a different perspective than many of us, and that is valuable. I consider you highly intelligent, and also, based on your posts, consider you seeing life from a different angle than many of us. My friends who found out as adults said it was a relief- liberating- rather than demeaning. My question was not intended as a slam at all. Will you forgive me for not being more clear in what I was wondering?

I do respect and appreciate you. We don't click with our questions and responses each time, but that's okay. We are here to learn.

Blessings, Brother.

OK, I will supply an etiquette lesson at no charge. Whilst you use the term “neurodivergent”, generally speaking, asking someone if they are autistic because they disagreed with you is rude and unkind, and is next door to asking “Are you retarded?” It is also rather rude to ask someone questions like in public on an open forum.

“Neurodivergent” is not a term with any clinical meaning, and is basically a made up term by some people who want to recast various behavioural disorders and other problems as something else.

For someone who hates labels, you sure were eager to ask me if any labels apply to me. It is also untrue that people who are autistic, ADD, or ADHD are “highly intelligent”; on average they have lower IQ than an average person. Generally speaking, having a behavioural disorder or a mental defect does not make someone “highly intelligent”.

It is true I bring a different perspective to this forum, and that is mostly because a decision I made to do so. This is a place for open debate and honest discussion. It is not a therapy forum, a self help forum, a church, or a place to seek pastoral counselling.

We have several posters here who promote false doctrine. We have several here who think promoting homosexuality and transsexuality is a good thing. And we have several who fail to grasp Anabaptist values at all, instead seeing this as an outlet for expressing the latest right wing conservative click bait. Participating in such a context means being ready to engage in difficult debate.

The typical conservative Mennonite response is to withdraw from a space like this and not debate at all. I decided not to do that.

I see how, with your viewpoint, the question was insulting and I do apologize. The statements you make above have been outdated by at least two decades and I disagree with you, but it is your privilege to hold to them.

Josh, apparently in your opinion it is perfectly fine for you to twist what others say, pull things out of context to make them look like they believe false doctrine and be downright rude. When you do this, it isn't okay for others to be hurt. I could feel hurt over things you posted in response to me today and yesterday. You have been rude in the past, to me and to others. I could not find any apologies from you, but I may have missed something. Yet, when I or others apologize sincerely, you offer an etiquette lesson instead of acknowledgment?????

Thank you for not charging.

[Sudsy]

One feature, I was at first opposed to, but have benefited from on this forum is the 'foes' option. I recommend it when a poster is more of a hindrance to one's spiritual growth than a help.

When anyone takes a position such as saying that ' We have several here who think promoting homosexuality and transsexuality is a good thing' then I believe this is one of those exaggeration statements and not even true that is looking for a fight, in my opinion, so I can put this poster on my foes list and check from time to time to see if this type of thing has changed or not.

And others can do the same regarding my posts whenever they do not care to discuss my interests and/or consider my beliefs. There will be times when I am perceived as 'walking in the flesh' and it may be best to treat me as a 'foe' until I am perceived to again be 'walking in the Spirit' with my input.

That is going to be my way of continuing to participate here and I would suggest others may want to try it and see how it works for them.