Impediments to membership in an Anabaptist fellowship

[Verity]

I agree with most of what you said. While Eastern may not claim in so many words to be the one true church, the actions of many say otherwise. I know countless situations where an adult child chose to join another fellowship and was considered "lost". One couple was bemoaning this only last week- one of their children is now Pilgrim, the other Northeastern. I was told by my father-in-law that if we joined anything other than Eastern or Washington County he would consider us apostate, and the extended family agrees with this position. This was with us joining a congregation that was more conservative in practice than the Eastern congregation we were part of. One minister went so far as to tell me that transferring from Eastern to another conservative group was equivalent to divorce "which is forbidden in the Scriptures, so you are on a dangerous course".

In other words they have a “one true church” doctrine despite claiming not to.

I’m not sure either of you are accurate? Maybe some times but I would hope Eastern was focusing on direction of travel. One split I know of that left Eastern to become intermediate has struggled deeply with becoming worldly, adultery, idolatry and etc can be found… Looking on the externals I’m not sure anyone would think those things are happening but having gotten to know them it is a very sad state of direction. And sadly many of the young adults are leaving, cohabiting, marrying far outside the faith, etc…. When Eastern people see this as I have it certainly saddens a heart greatly and so we certainly want to warn on direction of travel!

And as this relates to the topic at hand as someone leaves a less conservative setting for a more conservative- if the more conservative setting is travelling the opposite direction of the person looking for more “biblically” conservative setting there will be a constant tension between the two and hence why I’d rather just send seekers to ultra conservative settings.

Ned, could you clarify how you define accurate? Above I stated "the actions of many say otherwise." Not all. I do not lump of all Eastern members together. We have many valued friends in Eastern. There is a lot of good in Eastern, I readily acknowledge that. I did not leave for a more intermediate group- the direction of travel in our current group is more conservative, not less (one of our former ministers said this himself after observation). Eastern has changed significantly in the past twenty years. Any clear thinking member will acknowledge that. My father-in-law acknowledges that. He says that he has no idea where Eastern is headed and doesn't want to dwell on that but insists it is the place to stay.

I can only accurately portray my experience, as you can your own. When someone tells me that they have had no reason to lose trust in their leadership, I believe them. When another person from the same congregation says they have lost all confidence in their ministry because of ---, I believe them. Each is sharing their own experience.

What I term conservative most Anabaptist would call ultra conservative. I value this- that is why I did not throw it all away when choosing another church for my family. If I would not have had children, I might still be Eastern. But with the direction of travel and the way moral issues were handled, we did not have peace about staying.

I have watched too many young people leave Eastern because they became disillusioned. They heard one thing over the pulpit and saw quite another at home. When they left, with a heart that genuinely wanted to do right, their families disowned them. They needed family support and help as they navigated the maze of options, but suddenly they were on their own. Is it any wonder they lost their way? Yes, they made a choice. But too many times, the ones so sadly mourning the lost influenced those wrong choices. Am I making sense? I'm sorry if this only muddles things all the more.

[NedFlanders]

In other words they have a “one true church” doctrine despite claiming not to.

I’m not sure either of you are accurate? Maybe some times but I would hope Eastern was focusing on direction of travel. One split I know of that left Eastern to become intermediate has struggled deeply with becoming worldly, adultery, idolatry and etc can be found… Looking on the externals I’m not sure anyone would think those things are happening but having gotten to know them it is a very sad state of direction. And sadly many of the young adults are leaving, cohabiting, marrying far outside the faith, etc…. When Eastern people see this as I have it certainly saddens a heart greatly and so we certainly want to warn on direction of travel!

And as this relates to the topic at hand as someone leaves a less conservative setting for a more conservative- if the more conservative setting is travelling the opposite direction of the person looking for more “biblically” conservative setting there will be a constant tension between the two and hence why I’d rather just send seekers to ultra conservative settings.

Ned, could you clarify how you define accurate? Above I stated "the actions of many say otherwise." Not all. I do not lump of all Eastern members together. We have many valued friends in Eastern. There is a lot of good in Eastern, I readily acknowledge that. I did not leave for a more intermediate group- the direction of travel in our current group is more conservative, not less (one of our former ministers said this himself after observation). Eastern has changed significantly in the past twenty years. Any clear thinking member will acknowledge that. My father-in-law acknowledges that. He says that he has no idea where Eastern is headed and doesn't want to dwell on that but insists it is the place to stay.

I can only accurately portray my experience, as you can your own. When someone tells me that they have had no reason to lose trust in their leadership, I believe them. When another person from the same congregation says they have lost all confidence in their ministry because of ---, I believe them. Each is sharing their own experience.

What I term conservative most Anabaptist would call ultra conservative. I value this- that is why I did not throw it all away when choosing another church for my family. If I would not have had children, I might still be Eastern. But with the direction of travel and the way moral issues were handled, we did not have peace about staying.

I have watched too many young people leave Eastern because they became disillusioned. They heard one thing over the pulpit and saw quite another at home. When they left, with a heart that genuinely wanted to do right, their families disowned them. They needed family support and help as they navigated the maze of options, but suddenly they were on their own. Is it any wonder they lost their way? Yes, they made a choice. But too many times, the ones so sadly mourning the lost influenced those wrong choices. Am I making sense? I'm sorry if this only muddles things all the more.

I think we probably agree more than you realize.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I agree with most of what you said. While Eastern may not claim in so many words to be the one true church, the actions of many say otherwise. I know countless situations where an adult child chose to join another fellowship and was considered "lost". One couple was bemoaning this only last week- one of their children is now Pilgrim, the other Northeastern. I was told by my father-in-law that if we joined anything other than Eastern or Washington County he would consider us apostate, and the extended family agrees with this position. This was with us joining a congregation that was more conservative in practice than the Eastern congregation we were part of. One minister went so far as to tell me that transferring from Eastern to another conservative group was equivalent to divorce "which is forbidden in the Scriptures, so you are on a dangerous course".

In other words they have a “one true church” doctrine despite claiming not to.

I would agree with this observation. Effectively, most moderate conservatives don’t say this, because they limit themselves geographically to maintain the relationship that is necessary to exercise any meaningful authority. Without relationship authority is likely to be perceived, perhaps rightly as being illegitimate.

EPMC has congregations in Washington state.

[Ken]

I agree with most of what you said. While Eastern may not claim in so many words to be the one true church, the actions of many say otherwise. I know countless situations where an adult child chose to join another fellowship and was considered "lost". One couple was bemoaning this only last week- one of their children is now Pilgrim, the other Northeastern. I was told by my father-in-law that if we joined anything other than Eastern or Washington County he would consider us apostate, and the extended family agrees with this position. This was with us joining a congregation that was more conservative in practice than the Eastern congregation we were part of. One minister went so far as to tell me that transferring from Eastern to another conservative group was equivalent to divorce "which is forbidden in the Scriptures, so you are on a dangerous course".

In other words they have a “one true church” doctrine despite claiming not to.

I would agree with this observation. Effectively, most moderate conservatives don’t say this, because they limit themselves geographically to maintain the relationship that is necessary to exercise any meaningful authority. Without relationship authority is likely to be perceived, perhaps rightly as being illegitimate.

EPMC has congregations in Washington state.

I suspect Verity is referring to the Washington County in eastern Maryland that borders Franklin County PA as in the Washington-Franklin Mennonite Conference. And not Washington State on the other side of the country, which does not, in fact, have a Washington County. Although there is a Washington County in Oregon that is the western suburbs of Portland but no conservative Mennonite churches that I know of.

[QuietlyListening]

Our nephew is part of an Eastern church in Washington state.

[Judas Maccabeus]

In other words they have a “one true church” doctrine despite claiming not to.

I would agree with this observation. Effectively, most moderate conservatives don’t say this, because they limit themselves geographically to maintain the relationship that is necessary to exercise any meaningful authority. Without relationship authority is likely to be perceived, perhaps rightly as being illegitimate.

EPMC has congregations in Washington state.

I suspect Verity is referring to the Washington County in eastern Maryland that borders Franklin County PA as in the Washington-Franklin Mennonite Conference. And not Washington State on the other side of the country, which does not, in fact, have a Washington County. Although there is a Washington County in Oregon that is the western suburbs of Portland but no conservative Mennonite churches that I know of.

I know.

The congregation I reference is Rochester, WA. I have a few friends there. The point I am trying to make is that to truly be an OTVC, you have to be geographically diverse, like the church of God in Christ (Mennonite), and Eastern seems to be headed this way. They even have congregations in British Columbia. A group like ours will not get more spread out than an easy days drive. That is why many of the eastern moderate-conservative groups are the geographic size they are. Southeastern, Cumberland Valley, South Atlantic and Mid Atlantic all occupy areas that have only small overlap, and are in fellowship with each other. We want to actually know each other, and for them to know us. KMF is a bit different, we came to the party a bit later, but we enjoy a good relationship with all of the above.

South Atlantic separated from Southeastern for just that reason.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Our nephew is part of an Eastern church in Washington state.

Rochester WA, I presume. I have sang with people from there. Daughter used to live in Seattle, but never was there on Sunday AM.

[RZehr]

Eastern Pennsylvania in Western Washington.

[Ernie]

Tonight I heard about 3 impediments from a seeker that really turned her off at first.

1. The constant discussion of relatives and connections. (Most seeker at the beginning know very few if any of the people being talked about.)
2. The fascination with death. Big deals are made about funerals and praying for the families of people who lost a loved one that even the Anabaptists hardly know.
3. Cape dresses can give a false security to some Anabaptists. And she thinks that such clothing should be a personal choice, not something you make rules about.

[Josh]

Tonight I heard about 3 impediments from a seeker that really turned her off at first.

1. The constant discussion of relatives and connections. (Most seeker at the beginning know very few if any of the people being talked about.)

Yes, this is difficult. It is, however, part of the reality of any type of church where most people's children don't leave and lose connection, etc.

So it seems that a healthy church is generally going to have this dynamic. Incidentally, I have noticed the exact same type of culture in other cultures around the world or in immigrant communities inside the U.S./Canada: they talk about relatives, connections, who is going where, etc. and it can seem a little impenetrable at first for an outsider.

2. The fascination with death. Big deals are made about funerals and praying for the families of people who lost a loved one that even the Anabaptists hardly know.

This is kind of an extension of #1, too - a funeral might have 500 or 1,000 people attending. It is very disorienting for a seeker like myself where we hold a funeral for someone who is allegedly a member of the congregation I went to, yet I never met them in my life and they moved to Sarasota 20 years ago. It can be challenging to even convince myself to care. (After all, my aunt in Sarasota died a few years ago, and nobody in my church knew about it.)

3. Cape dresses can give a false security to some Anabaptists. And she thinks that such clothing should be a personal choice, not something you make rules about.

I would agree that a sizeable fraction of CAs have a clothes-based spirituality. This seeker, however, is missing a key component of Anabaptism with her belief that "clothing should be a personal choice". Overcoming this belief system (one I used to have myself, about a variety of areas) is difficult for a seeker to do.