The cape dress: Its origins and evolution over the ages

[Sudsy]

I think there is a fairly common belief that changes away from traditions is a step in a worldly direction. I experienced this in Pentecostalism and to some extent I think they were a drift into worldliness. However, in other traditions, I think they were more of a hindrance to spreading the Gospel than they were a benefit. Jesus sure challenged various traditions in His day. This got Him into considerable conflict especially with the traditions of the Pharisees. But there were some traditions He said to abide by. I believe there are good traditions and bad traditions and some that just are not as good as they once were as our settings in the world change.

As I've said before, the only people winning any converts where I live are the Pentecostals who maintain the strictest standard (in Pentecostal terms) of attire. (No wedding rings, women wearing their hair up, no shorts on men, and a few other things like that.) It appears that having a dress code and expecting converts to live up to it doesn't actually impact evangelism at all.

As a counterpoint, Mennonite groups that decided to drop any semblance of dress codes at all have not seem some huge success in leading unbelievers to Christ. They are just as stagnant as anywhere else.

I am quite familiar with strict Pentecostals in our area but where I believe they differ from those who wear cape dresses is that they don't stand out in a crowd. The Oneness Pentecostal ladies in our area are not easily identied as such in a mall, for instance, whereas those wearing a cape dress and/or unique 'headcovering' of Mennonite sorts are. I can't say for sure how big of a turnoff conservative apparel is to seekers but I do believe there is a big difference between most Holiness or Oneness Pentecostal ladies in how they appear in public than those who wear a cape dress and 'headcovering' that is totally different from the culture. So, I guess we have differing opinions here.

Regarding your counterpoint the MB church I attended and the other Evangelical Mennonite church in our area are having considerable success in leading unbelievers to Christ. In my observations they and the Pentecostals are leading the way in reaching the unchurched in our area. So, we have differences in our observations here also.

When I think about our differences from the unsaved world I think back on Paul. He said - "I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some." So it would appear to me that Paul was willing to go as far as he could to relate to the lost and yet not be sinning. A question is in my pursuit of new believers am I becoming more worldly minded than they are becoming spiritually minded ? If so, I have probably crossed the line of being all things. And is my passion to win the lost growing as I become all things or is it shrinking ? If so, I may be straying from the law of Christ.

[Ernie]

I see it with my own daughters and my wife and we try to teach them to resist the whims of fashion, especially when inappropriate.

Why would you tell your daughters this sort of thing if dress is not mentioned by Jesus?
And can a church do the same sort of teaching that you and your wife do, or are parents the only ones that are allowed to do this sort of teaching?

I think we are sending young women the wrong message when we obsess about what they wear and nit-pick their appearance. Especially compared to what is inside.

I agree. And I am not aware of anyone on Mennonet who disagrees with you. In fact, I don't know of any Christians in the world who think we should obsess about what people wear and nit-pick their appearance and disregard what is on this inside. So I am not sure who you are addressing. Who is the audience that you are trying to enlighten?

3. Nowhere in the Bible to I see rigid conformity of dress taught as any sort of virtue. Not in the Old Testament or New Testament.

Rigid conformity is taught in the Old Testament but you do say that you ignore that. So in light of that, am I understanding correctly that there aren’t any principles that we as Christians should be learning from this Old Testament instruction?

Regarding modesty...
Here are various definitions for which I use the word "modesty"
1. Not wearing costly array
2. Dressing humbly, simply, and without ostentation
3. Covering the body
4. Wearing loose clothing and clothing that helps conceal a person's figure

I am curious if you teach these same values to your daughters, or are some of these neither here nor there to you?

We teach them to dress appropriately for the situation which means different things for school, work, soccer, weekends, dates, and church.

Why do you teach them to do this? And what is the anchor or the perspective from which you decide what is appropriate? I think you indicated earlier that in your mind, the Bible doesn't give teaching on this matter. Am I understanding correctly?

My wife (who was raised Catholic) expects them to dress up a bit more for church as a matter of respect for the occasion and surroundings.

Upon what basis is it ok for your wife to expect this of your daughters?

But they aren't taught that wearing a nicer dress (or dress in general) is going to bring them closer to God or anything of that sort.

I'm not aware of anyone on MN that believes this nor anyone else outside of MN for that matter. Again, who is the audience that you are trying to enlighten?

The oldest went through a rebellious phase in middle school and early high school in Texas and wanted to push the envelope with school dress. Mostly ripped jeans, leggings, spaghetti tops, etc. My wife got tired of fighting with her every morning and took to calling the school secretary to have her "dress coded" since the school had a strict dress code.

What is wrong with ripped jeans, leggings, spaghetti tops, etc.? Isn't this nitpicking about clothes?

In the settings where I circulate, if a mom was having trouble getting her girls to cooperate, she would ask her husband to get involved. I can't every remember a time in the churches and communities where I circulate whenever a mom called on the school to force a child to do something at school that she couldn't get them to do when they left for school. Why would your wife need to enlist the help of the school? What is up with this? Where is the dad?

I don't think those individual style choices have the slightest thing to do with their value as individuals and Christians.

I don't either, and I don't know of anyone on MN who believes this. In fact, I don't know of anyone who believes this. Again, who is the audience you are trying to enlighten?

I think home, school, and church should at least be "safe spaces" where they can relax a bit and not have to face constant judgment about their appearance. So they most definitely don't need male bishops or deacons or pastors wives or school administrators hassling them about their clothing choices as long as they are not being immodest and generally dressing appropriately to the occasion.

So you told us about a mom who "hassled" her daughter about her clothing, and she got the school to also "hassle" her daughter about her clothing.

But homes and schools are supposed to be "safe places" where daughters "can relax a bit and not have to face judgment about their appearance"?  

Does that answer your questions or am I off on a different tangent?

This did not address my earlier questions and only raised lots more questions.

[Ken]

Why would you tell your daughters this sort of thing if dress is not mentioned by Jesus?
And can a church do the same sort of teaching that you and your wife do, or are parents the only ones that are allowed to do this sort of teaching?

There is a lot about growing up and living in a society that doesn't directly relate to something mentioned by Jesus. Dress, diet, exercise, punctuality, being considerate, putting cans in the proper recycling bin, cleaning up your room, understanding distinctions in social settings, and so forth. Not everything you teach your child needs to be accompanied by a Bible verse. But you know that.

I think we are sending young women the wrong message when we obsess about what they wear and nit-pick their appearance. Especially compared to what is inside.

I agree. And I am not aware of anyone on Mennonet who disagrees with you. In fact, I don't know of any Christians in the world who think we should obsess about what people wear and nit-pick their appearance and disregard what is on this inside. So I am not sure who you are addressing. Who is the audience that you are trying to enlighten?

I'm answering your question not trying to enlighten an audience here. But I'm talking about this sort of thing mentioned here recently:

To not go deep… one of my weirdest memories was having to hold up the fabric I had bought for dresses in front of a small group of people to be approved or disapproved. All the fabric was well within church standards (in fact, some ladies there already had dresses in the exact same fabric). But they wanted to make sure my husband approved of each one.

Once they suggested I have a dress made “inside out” so the teeny tiny flowers would be on the inside, not the outside, which honestly would have looked dumb~ the inside of the fabric was obviously the inside, you know?

When we finally left, I got rid of some dresses, because to use a worldly term, they were ‘triggering’ and I couldn’t wear them.

There was recently a twitter thread started by some conservative Evangelical women about all the negative things they had been told about there dress and appearance in church and it just went on page after page after page of hoor stories about young women facing endless inconsistent criticism about appearance. If you think this sort of thing doesn't happen, including in some Mennonite churches too you are naive.

I'll see if I can find that thread to enlighten you.

3. Nowhere in the Bible to I see rigid conformity of dress taught as any sort of virtue. Not in the Old Testament or New Testament.

Rigid conformity is taught in the Old Testament but you do say that you ignore that. So in light of that, am I understanding correctly that there aren’t any principles that we as Christians should be learning from this Old Testament instruction?

Here's Leviticus 19: 19 “You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind. You shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material."

Do YOU follow THAT Old Testament law? If not, why not?

Here are various definitions for which I use the word "modesty"
1. Not wearing costly array
2. Dressing humbly, simply, and without ostentation
3. Covering the body
4. Wearing loose clothing and clothing that helps conceal a person's figure

I am curious if you teach these same values to your daughters, or are some of these neither here nor there to you?

#1 and 2 I addressed. My girls do that without my help. Too much so for my wife's taste at times.
#3 and #4 are not based on any New Testament Biblical teaching. Not even the Amish adhere to those rules. Did you make them up or borrow them from Islam?

Two of my daughters played competitive soccer for many years and dressed in the normal shorts and jerseys as the rest of the team for practice and games.

The third daughter was a competitive swimmer and wore her team swim suits for matches and practice and swim robes when on deck. Like all the other swimmers.

During the summer and at the beach they dress differently than when working in the local grocery store or attending church in January.

No, I don't tell them that they must keep their bodies covered and wear loose clothing that conceals their shape. We don't live in Iran or Saudi Arabia. Even Amish women don't actually do that. In fact there are men out there who find Amish dress provocative. The long skirts and stockings and bonnets, etc. Ultimately men need to be responsible for their own behavior. It isn't the responsibility of young women to avoid provoking every kind of man out there. Which is an utterly impossible task anyway.

What is wrong with ripped jeans, leggings, spaghetti tops, etc.? Isn't this nitpicking about clothes?

It is out of dress code for most schools in the country including the one I teach at now. And therefore, not appropriate school wear. Neither are t-shirts with inappropriate messages such as beer ads or logos which is nowhere in the New Testament either. Not every social rule is Biblical. Most of them in fact are not.

Raising children and teaching them is not just about obedience. It is also about teaching them to think for themselves and become increasingly independent. Kids these days navigate an endless array or rules and adults telling them what to do, all day long, every day. At home it is chores, homework, bed times, limits on screen time, who they can associate with, etc. At school it is a rotating cast of teachers and administrators governing their every action inside and outside of class and making decisions for them. At church there is more of the same.

So I expect them to increasingly think for themselves as they grow older in their decisions about dress, friends, books to read for pleasure, how they spend their free time, their hobbies, and interests. And as part of that, I'm happy to let them express themselves as they see fit in their dress. Which has generally never been a problem Deciding what to wear each day is actually one of the few things they do have control over. We only have them for a short period of time before they are launched into the world.

If my wife thinks a particular outfit might be inappropriate for whatever reason she will tell them to change. That rarely ever happened with daughter #1 and never with daughters #2 and #3 unless you count my wife asking them to dress up a bit more for church even though the ratty sweatshirt and baggy jeans one might have had on would have actually met all four of your criteria for modest dress above. And then the conversation might go along the following lines: "why don't you go put on something nicer for church". "Ah mom...what's wrong with what I have on? Do you think God cares?" "Just do what I tell you. We dress nicer for church to show respect for the institution and God. I'm not taking you to church looking like you just rolled out of bed."

And I promise you that my daughter knows exactly what my wife means without her having to cite scripture to make her point.

[Josh]

putting cans in the proper recycling bin

Is there a reason to actually do this?

[Ken]

putting cans in the proper recycling bin

Is there a reason to actually do this?

Plastic recycling is a fraud. Aluminum recycling is not.

[Neto]

putting cans in the proper recycling bin

Is there a reason to actually do this?

Plastic recycling is a fraud. Aluminum recycling is not.

Actually, there is a huge business operation here in Berlin that builds out-door furniture from - you should be able to guess it - recycled plastics. There used to be an out-door bench up at the grocery store here in town that had a sign on it, telling how many plastic milk jugs it would take to make that much "plastic wood". (Maybe the bench is still there, but not sure about the sign - haven't looked for it recently.)

[Ken]

Is there a reason to actually do this?

Plastic recycling is a fraud. Aluminum recycling is not.

Actually, there is a huge business operation here in Berlin that builds out-door furniture from - you should be able to guess it - recycled plastics. There used to be an out-door bench up at the grocery store here in town that had a sign on it, telling how many plastic milk jugs it would take to make that much "plastic wood". (Maybe the bench is still there, but not sure about the sign - haven't looked for it recently.)

OK, yes, certain plastics CAN be recycled.

But the idea that the plastic bottle you put into your recycling bin actually gets recycled is the fraud. Exact statistics are hard to come by but I have read that between 80-90% of the plastic we put into recycling bins ends up in landfills anyway because there is no demand for that bulk plastic waste and even China doesn't want it anymore.

Yet the plastic industry keeps promoting the notion of plastic recycling to avoid people actually giving closer scrutiny to the immense amount of plastic waste that we produce that ends up filling landfills anyway. It is an enormous multi-decade greenwashing PR scam perpetrated by the petroleum and plastics industry. And that isn't just a baseless conspiracy theory!

[ken_sylvania]

And that isn't just a baseless conspiracy theory!

That's exactly what most conspiracy theorists say!

[ohio jones]

OK, yes, certain plastics CAN be recycled.

Can they be recycled into cape dresses, or is this off topic?

[Ken]

OK, yes, certain plastics CAN be recycled.

Can they be recycled into cape dresses, or is this off topic?

Yes they can if you are willing to accommodate polyester cape dresses. https://oceanness.com/pages/how-we-do-it

Not so much if you want cotton.

But dresses made from recycled plastic are a thing. Companies like Patagonia sell them, although they obviously aren't cape dresses.

Maybe there is a business opportunity there!