Re-reforming the Church
Re-reforming the Church
I just got done reading this thought-provoking article by Peter Mommsen.
The Church We Need Now
He covers a lot of the same ground as a number of the recent discussions on here, so I thought it would be interesting to post it here and open it up for comments.
The Church We Need Now
He covers a lot of the same ground as a number of the recent discussions on here, so I thought it would be interesting to post it here and open it up for comments.
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Re: Re-reforming the Church
I always enjoy reading things that touch on the idea of post-Christendom.
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Re-reforming the Church
Quotes from the article:Peregrino wrote:I just got done reading this thought-provoking article by Peter Mommsen.
The Church We Need Now
He covers a lot of the same ground as a number of the recent discussions on here, so I thought it would be interesting to post it here and open it up for comments.
Valerie keeps talking about "the myriad divisions" I think in reference to Anabaptists. The thing to remember is that most Anabaptist groups are separated for geographical reason. Most Anabaptist groups would consider themselves "as one" in reference to Jesus' prayer. We have a variation of standards but most of that is because we do not have a pope to dictate to us.On the one hand, the myriad divisions it brought are nothing to celebrate. In light of Jesus’ last prayer that his followers“may all be one” (John 17), Christian disunity is a tragedy and a scandal. From: The Church We Need Now
In order to follow conscience and based on reading of the Bible, we had no choice but to remove ourselves from what Valerie calls "the universal worldwide church"As Tertullian wrote: “It is a fundamental human right, a privilege of nature, that every man should worship according to his own convictions… It is assuredly no part of religion to compel religion – to which free will and not force should lead us.”
The early church prohibited all killing, whether in war, self-defense, abortion, or euthanasia, based on Jesus’ words in the Sermon on the Mount and his own example of nonresistance.
On the need for reformation, I believe too many of our Anabaptists have become the "new Pharisee" and would be no more open to necessary reformation than the "universal worldwide church" was, although we would not see them resorting to the same level of physical violence. I have often said that Conrad Grebel would not receive a much warmer welcome in our church than he did where he was.
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Re: Re-reforming the Church
I am not sure if you were part of Mennodiscuss, but no Hats Off, I have never referred to the myriad of divisions in Christendom to Anabaptists- especially since I oft' say 'thousands' of sects- certainly that couldn't be the Anabaptist alone- I am primarily speaking of the Western side of Christianity-Hats Off wrote:[
Quotes from the article:Valerie keeps talking about "the myriad divisions" I think in reference to Anabaptists.On the one hand, the myriad divisions it brought are nothing to celebrate. In light of Jesus’ last prayer that his followers“may all be one” (John 17), Christian disunity is a tragedy and a scandal. From: The Church We Need Now
However, I do not know a Christian soul who is honest with themselves that do not recognize this situation- (or a non- Christian soul for that matter)
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Re: Re-reforming the Church
That's true. But what bother us me is your constant references to the EO as being the only church that is not a schismatic group, and holding the original teaching of the apostles. That is so obviously not true that I think you would be doing yourself a favor by not continuing to repeat it.Valerie wrote:However, I do not know a Christian soul who is honest with themselves that do not recognize this situation [schisms in Christianity]- (or a non- Christian soul for that matter)
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Re: Re-reforming the Church
I guess it is because all schismatic groups were started by 'someone' who started them with their own teachings- which you cannot find with EO- there is no one person that led this entire group away out of- 'well out of where?lesterb wrote:That's true. But what bother us me is your constant references to the EO as being the only church that is not a schismatic group, and holding the original teaching of the apostles. That is so obviously not true that I think you would be doing yourself a favor by not continuing to repeat it.Valerie wrote:However, I do not know a Christian soul who is honest with themselves that do not recognize this situation [schisms in Christianity]- (or a non- Christian soul for that matter)
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Re: Re-reforming the Church
Group upon group in Christianity have attempted to go back to some form of the early church and yet have disagreements on how that church should practise their Christianity. Within Anabaptism some believe they are the most literal followers of scripture and are better followers than other Anabaptists even though they may not admit to it, imo. And compared to other Christian groups like the Charismatics and Evangelicals and Protestants and RCs and EOs, etc, etc., we are the closest followers to the NT scriptures. I was raised Pentecostal in a 'Full Gospel' church. We were the early church that preached the 'full Gospel' whereas others had not experienced the new birth and gifts of the Spirit in the way we were. And within Pentecostalism there are the same variations of that emphasis (4 square, latter day, etc, etc). Seems to me, the keener a group of Christians are in being more sanctified, the more they are prone to split over minor issues.
Anyway, now that we have these thousands of church divisions is there any chance of this going away ? Imo, no. I doubt we are all going to agree that a certain group is the one that follows Jesus best and so we will join them. I think I understand why folks, like Valerie, are searching for that one true church and so go back to what one studies to be the oldest, most original church. I enjoy considering what the older churches and 'church fathers' believed but find they too did not believe the same. What one thought as heretical the other did not. Imo, there was no perfect protection of what was considered heresy.
Additionally many groups try to fix this problem and form unions (i.e. the Gospel Coalition), as they believe these divisions do hinder the Gospel from being believed. And, from what I see, these unions are pretty fragile and spend considerable time tying to hold them together.
Well, enough babble, but can anyone share how they think a re-reforming of the church could actually work today ? We've messed it up pretty much and it makes me wonder about that verse that says when Jesus returns will there be any real faith existing. There may be a vibrant form of Christianity in existence but it seems to be looking less and less like the Christianity that was first initiated. A Christianity that appeals highly to the comforts and lusts of the old nature and disguised as being something God approves. A form of godliness but lacking any real power of deliverance from sin. Re-
reforming the Church ? How ? Who will lead the reformation ? Somebody help me from being so skeptical even though I believe Christ is still building His Church in spite of us.
Anyway, now that we have these thousands of church divisions is there any chance of this going away ? Imo, no. I doubt we are all going to agree that a certain group is the one that follows Jesus best and so we will join them. I think I understand why folks, like Valerie, are searching for that one true church and so go back to what one studies to be the oldest, most original church. I enjoy considering what the older churches and 'church fathers' believed but find they too did not believe the same. What one thought as heretical the other did not. Imo, there was no perfect protection of what was considered heresy.
Additionally many groups try to fix this problem and form unions (i.e. the Gospel Coalition), as they believe these divisions do hinder the Gospel from being believed. And, from what I see, these unions are pretty fragile and spend considerable time tying to hold them together.
Well, enough babble, but can anyone share how they think a re-reforming of the church could actually work today ? We've messed it up pretty much and it makes me wonder about that verse that says when Jesus returns will there be any real faith existing. There may be a vibrant form of Christianity in existence but it seems to be looking less and less like the Christianity that was first initiated. A Christianity that appeals highly to the comforts and lusts of the old nature and disguised as being something God approves. A form of godliness but lacking any real power of deliverance from sin. Re-
reforming the Church ? How ? Who will lead the reformation ? Somebody help me from being so skeptical even though I believe Christ is still building His Church in spite of us.
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Re: Re-reforming the Church
Away out of simple Biblical obedience.Valerie wrote:I guess it is because all schismatic groups were started by 'someone' who started them with their own teachings- which you cannot find with EO- there is no one person that led this entire group away out of- 'well out of where?lesterb wrote:That's true. But what bother us me is your constant references to the EO as being the only church that is not a schismatic group, and holding the original teaching of the apostles. That is so obviously not true that I think you would be doing yourself a favor by not continuing to repeat it.Valerie wrote:However, I do not know a Christian soul who is honest with themselves that do not recognize this situation [schisms in Christianity]- (or a non- Christian soul for that matter)
The effect is the same, whether the group drifted away under the leadership of one person or a group of people.
Your suggestion that every group other than EO was each started by a single person is historically inaccurate.
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Re: Re-reforming the Church
Well, current scholarship holds that the Anabaptist movement was started by Polly Genesis.ken_sylvania wrote:Your suggestion that every group other than EO was each started by a single person is historically inaccurate.
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I grew up around Indiana, You grew up around Galilee; And if I ever really do grow up, I wanna grow up to be just like You -- Rich Mullins
I am a Christian and my name is Pilgram; I'm on a journey, but I'm not alone -- NewSong, slightly edited
I am a Christian and my name is Pilgram; I'm on a journey, but I'm not alone -- NewSong, slightly edited
Re: Re-reforming the Church
I actually googled "Polly Genesis" to find out what group "EO" actually refers to, I couldn't find Polly though ![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_e_wink.gif)
![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/icon_e_wink.gif)
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