Social Security ....The monthly Check...yes or no

[Jeff Altweg]

Just to try and clarify a bit....Yes , you need to be a member of a Church group that's able to help file the paperwork for exemption from paying SS....It can be Amish ,or any of the many conservative groups that take that stand, against government help...A lead pastor has to vouch for you to apply, and it does say on the form ,that if you leave that group ,or setting , you need to let SS know ,and get back on, it makes you agree to that...
So now we bump up against the Anabaptist habit ,the changing Church thing, almost 90% of the time we tend to get more Progressive,when we switch Church , and suddenly find ourselves in an Anabaptist Church that dosen't do this exemption thing....from SS....but we keep on , keep exempt ,when we really do not qualify any more...I myself know many dozens of people in that situation , Not Amish, but still exempt..
I urge every one I know ,to get back on , you're going to need it.....Someone mentioned on this thread that Medicare is a tottally different setup, I hope so ,I'm planning to check that out .

[Josh]

Just to try and clarify a bit....Yes , you need to be a member of a Church group that's able to help file the paperwork for exemption from paying SS....It can be Amish ,or any of the many conservative groups that take that stand, against government help...A lead pastor has to vouch for you to apply, and it does say on the form ,that if you leave that group ,or setting , you need to let SS know ,and get back on, it makes you agree to that...
So now we bump up against the Anabaptist habit ,the changing Church thing, almost 90% of the time we tend to get more Progressive,when we switch Church , and suddenly find ourselves in an Anabaptist Church that dosen't do this exemption thing....from SS....but we keep on , keep exempt ,when we really do not qualify any more...I myself know many dozens of people in that situation , Not Amish, but still exempt..
I urge every one I know ,to get back on , you're going to need it.....Someone mentioned on this thread that Medicare is a tottally different setup, I hope so ,I'm planning to check that out .

More specifically, the specific church and the sect it belongs to need to be approved; 4029 forms get examined by some accountant in Lancaster area. My nephew's church used to be on this list, but apparently isn't anymore, when his application got denied, despite virtually everyone 10+ years ago being approved. (I am guessing old people in that church decided to apply for Medicare?) He works for an exempt employer.

You can see the list that was current around 2007 here:

https://cdn.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/SSAGroups.xls

[Josh]

So now we bump up against the Anabaptist habit ,the changing Church thing, almost 90% of the time we tend to get more Progressive,when we switch Church , and suddenly find ourselves in an Anabaptist Church that dosen't do this exemption thing....from SS....but we keep on , keep exempt ,when we really do not qualify any more...I myself know many dozens of people in that situation , Not Amish, but still exempt..
I urge every one I know ,to get back on , you're going to need it.....Someone mentioned on this thread that Medicare is a tottally different setup, I hope so ,I'm planning to check that out .

This progressive escalation doesn't really happen in Amish circles nor in other circles of Mennonites who hold strong convictions about insurance. (Nationwide would be an example; I don't think they're becoming more progressive, at least about insurance type of issues.) Personally, if a strongly held conviction I had were being gradually abandoned, and I couldn't turn my church around, I would probably eventually leave.

But in any case, individuals who held this conviction and lived up to it should not feel under any pressure to abandon it just because some of their coreligionists do. Nor will re-enrolling in SS help their situation very much, if most of their earning years haven't earned any credit. Jeff, what I am saying is that your advice here is bad financial advice.

[Jeff Altweg]

Wow , that list is remarkable ,had no Idea it existed at all ....I spotted 2 congregations in just a few minutes , that are listed , but the head pastor, or Bishop , will no longer sign new applications , for whatever reasons, so they don't know everything ...
As for my Financial advice ,ha , it's free , so take it or leave it .....I happen to know several people in $$ distress now, in their old age , (Over 62) , that wish they'd done it different, I repeat ,If you're only wanting to be exempt for financial reasons , you need to get back on , you won't be sorry .....

[Ken]

Wow , that list is remarkable ,had no Idea it existed at all ....I spotted 2 congregations in just a few minutes , that are listed , but the head pastor, or Bishop , will no longer sign new applications , for whatever reasons, so they don't know everything ...

They probably don't want the financial obligation of taking care of new members for life. Especially people who have not been in the congregation for generations and who's families have not been contributing for generations.

[RZehr]

Where did this list come from? Who updates it?

[RZehr]

Not arguing here really, but consider-
We know that Social Security has no cash in a bank somewhere that funds beneficiaries. And that it currently relies on the payments of today’s workers to pay for today’s beneficiaries.
The birth rate of the average American woman in 2023 was 1.784 births per woman. So that seems to leave less than two workers (children, next generation) to fund their parents retirement.

The birth rate of the average Mennonite or Amish woman is what? 4? 5? Either way I’m sure it is more than 1.784. Some groups might be 10+.

It comes down to financial discipline. The demographics are favorable for the churches, so that isn’t the problem.

[Ken]

Where did this list come from? Who updates it?

The Social Security Administration.

I don't know if there is an actual list on the internet. But to qualify both you and your church must have an approved exemption forms on file and the only churches that are eligible are ones that have been in existence since before 1950 and have been taking care of their members through alternative means other than social security continuously since 1950. That narrows it down a lot.

I think there is a completely separate exemption from paying into social security for church organizations that have a religious objection but that only applies to EMPLOYEES of the church and not the members. Don't confuse the two. Just because your church might not pay social security for the minister doesn't mean members get to exempt out when they have other jobs.

[Ken]

Not arguing here really, but consider-
We know that Social Security has no cash in a bank somewhere that funds beneficiaries. And that it currently relies on the payments of today’s workers to pay for today’s beneficiaries.
The birth rate of the average American woman in 2023 was 1.784 births per woman. So that seems to leave less than two workers (children, next generation) to fund their parents retirement.

The birth rate of the average Mennonite or Amish woman is what? 4? 5? Either way I’m sure it is more than 1.784. Some groups might be 10+.

It comes down to financial discipline. The demographics are favorable for the churches, so that isn’t the problem.

Social Security is also a government program like any other in which recipients are ENTITLED BY LAW to certain benefits regardless of how much money is or isn't in the fictitious social security trust fund. As such it is actually backed by the full faith and credit of the Federal Government which has the power to print and borrow money and raise taxes.

So if we reach a point where the Social Security program is in a deficit, then two separate provisions of law will be in conflict. The first is the provision of law that defines what specific benefit each person is entitled to. The second is the provision of law that spells out how those benefits will be paid for. And if Congress does nothing then it will be up to the courts to decide which provision of law takes precedence. I don't think we actually know what they will say.

In any event, Congress can solve the problem through a variety of ways:

1. Cutting benefits to current recipients and/or future recipients. Note: Things like raising the retirement age or means testing are just disguised benefit cuts, nothing more.

2. Raising social security taxes which could be done at least three ways: raising the tax rate percentage, raising the income limit, and increasing the types of income subject to the tax to include things like dividend income, investment income, etc.

3. Paying for it out of other taxes and raising those taxes (general income taxes, corporate income taxes, fees, tariffs, etc.)

4. Deficit spending which would mean letting future generations pay for current retirees.

Either way the program isn't going away and the chances that Congress will cut benefits for current or near future retirees is exceedingly slim. These are the people who vote at the highest rates and are the most Republican leaning. There is a reason why it is called the third rail of American politics.

[Josh]

Wow , that list is remarkable ,had no Idea it existed at all ....I spotted 2 congregations in just a few minutes , that are listed , but the head pastor, or Bishop , will no longer sign new applications , for whatever reasons, so they don't know everything ...
As for my Financial advice ,ha , it's free , so take it or leave it .....I happen to know several people in $$ distress now, in their old age , (Over 62) , that wish they'd done it different, I repeat ,If you're only wanting to be exempt for financial reasons , you need to get back on , you won't be sorry .....

Again, the proper reason to be exempt is for spiritual reasons, not financial reasons.

The list is dated from 2007, as I said in my earlier post. Presumably some things have changed since then.