Social Security ....The monthly Check...yes or no

[mike]

I think my son's in-laws are something along the line of the "Kingdom of Heaven" group. Their dad made up his own driver's license and license plate and said he was from another kingdom. He got pulled over and hassled by the cops "a lot". He changed his first and last name, and the names of his wife and children. His children never had drivers licenses and mostly drove the back roads before it got dark. They all worked odd jobs, like fixing someone's car for much less than the "regular" mechanics, or mowing your lawn, computer repair, etc.

My son's wife has "come in from the cold" on this, and she got her birth certificate, DL, SSN etc. after her father died. They also got medical insurance and got legally married. She has come a long way, my son has been very patient on this.

We have friends from years ago who were into this sort of movement for many years until recently when they changed their minds. https://www.embassyofheaven.com/ was at one point a website where you could order alternative Kingdom of Heaven license plates and registration cards for your vehicle which identified it as property of Jesus Christ or something like that. They used to have a place on their website listing people currently in jail. As of now, I don't see anything advertising the plates and registrations any more.

Our friends operated their cars with those plates but with very opaque license plate "protectors" over them to make them hard to read. They operated a cash-only construction business and didn't get SSNs for their children or file taxes from what I understand. I've heard they have since left this point of view.

Also there is a local man who had the same ideas and has had no end of trouble from authorities over vehicle registrations and other things where he has refused to comply with regulations. All of this of course is characterized as persecution.

[Ken]

Of course, when SS started, they have assurances they would not use the number for identification purposes.

The alternative is a national ID like most other countries.

Which would you rather have?

The alternative is not having one at all.

Aren't you the same person who just started another thread about how people should be required to identify themselves?

The fact is local, state, and federal governments and other institutions like banks need some way to uniquely identify and distinguish individuals from each other. Names, signatures, addresses, and birth dates will not do that because those are either not permanent or unique or both. For example, here in the US there are over 38,000 people named James Smith, 32,000 named Maria Garcia, and 34,000 named Michael Smith. Many of whom have matching birth dates or matching addresses (when children are named after parents which is common).

So every government and non-government institution needs some way to uniquely identify every John Smith or Maria Garcia so that they know they have the right one when tracking taxes, identifying the owners of properties, identifying the owners of bank accounts, or even identifying an individuals vaccination records, school records, or SAT scores. That has become more important today than in centuries past because of electronic recordkeeping. By default, the social security number has become that unique identifier. Absent the social security number, the government would have to create some other identifying number that is both (1) unique to every individual in the US, and (2) permanent.

Even driver's licenses do not serve this function because there are over 50 jurisdictions that issue drivers licenses and people's drivers licenses change over time as they move from state to state. If, for example, you want to sell a piece of property that you bought 6 states away and 50 years (20 driver's licenses ago) how do you identify that it is actually YOUR property that you are trying to sell and not one of the other 20,000 Josh Smith's out there? And how does the clerk in the title office 6 states away prevent some other Josh Smith from selling your property out from under you and disappearing with the cash? That is one of the reasons you can't buy and sell property without a social security number or the equivalent TIN. Title companies won't clear the transaction unless they can conduct a search to determine if there are any judgements against you that might generate a lien on the property. And they use social security numbers to do that.

It is also for your protection. If some debt collector comes calling saying that you owe $100,000 in debts, how do you prove that it isn't your debt and that the debt was accrued by one of the other 20,000 Josh Smiths out there?

So while a few quirky individuals living hermit lives off the grid may be able to get away without having any sort of ID number attached to their name. The government, financial system, and even educational system can't really function without being able to uniquely identify each individual. And if we don't use social security numbers for that purpose we would need to create a whole new national ID program like in every other modern country where each citizen and resident is issued a permanent and unique national ID number. Even the Amish have social security numbers even if they don't participate in the social security insurance program.

[ken_sylvania]

The alternative is a national ID like most other countries.

Which would you rather have?

The alternative is not having one at all.

Aren't you the same person who just started another thread about how people should be required to identify themselves?

The fact is local, state, and federal governments and other institutions like banks need some way to uniquely identify and distinguish individuals from each other. Names, signatures, addresses, and birth dates will not do that because those are either not permanent or unique or both. For example, here in the US there are over 38,000 people named James Smith, 32,000 named Maria Garcia, and 34,000 named Michael Smith. Many of whom have matching birth dates or matching addresses (when children are named after parents which is common).

So every government and non-government institution needs some way to uniquely identify every John Smith or Maria Garcia so that they know they have the right one when tracking taxes, identifying the owners of properties, identifying the owners of bank accounts, or even identifying an individuals vaccination records, school records, or SAT scores. That has become more important today than in centuries past because of electronic recordkeeping. By default, the social security number has become that unique identifier. Absent the social security number, the government would have to create some other identifying number that is both (1) unique to every individual in the US, and (2) permanent.

Even driver's licenses do not serve this function because there are over 50 jurisdictions that issue drivers licenses and people's drivers licenses change over time as they move from state to state. If, for example, you want to sell a piece of property that you bought 6 states away and 50 years (20 driver's licenses ago) how do you identify that it is actually YOUR property that you are trying to sell and not one of the other 20,000 Josh Smith's out there? And how does the clerk in the title office 6 states away prevent some other Josh Smith from selling your property out from under you and disappearing with the cash? That is one of the reasons you can't buy and sell property without a social security number or the equivalent TIN. Title companies won't clear the transaction unless they can conduct a search to determine if there are any judgements against you that might generate a lien on the property. And they use social security numbers to do that.

It is also for your protection. If some debt collector comes calling saying that you owe $100,000 in debts, how do you prove that it isn't your debt and that the debt was accrued by one of the other 20,000 Josh Smiths out there?

So while a few quirky individuals living hermit lives off the grid may be able to get away without having any sort of ID number attached to their name. The government, financial system, and even educational system can't really function without being able to uniquely identify each individual. And if we don't use social security numbers for that purpose we would need to create a whole new national ID program like in every other modern country where each citizen and resident is issued a permanent and unique national ID number. Even the Amish have social security numbers even if they don't participate in the social security insurance program.

You lost me as soon as you got to the part about your fantasy that buying or selling property couldn't be done without a SSN or TIN.

[Ken]

The alternative is not having one at all.

Aren't you the same person who just started another thread about how people should be required to identify themselves?

The fact is local, state, and federal governments and other institutions like banks need some way to uniquely identify and distinguish individuals from each other. Names, signatures, addresses, and birth dates will not do that because those are either not permanent or unique or both. For example, here in the US there are over 38,000 people named James Smith, 32,000 named Maria Garcia, and 34,000 named Michael Smith. Many of whom have matching birth dates or matching addresses (when children are named after parents which is common).

So every government and non-government institution needs some way to uniquely identify every John Smith or Maria Garcia so that they know they have the right one when tracking taxes, identifying the owners of properties, identifying the owners of bank accounts, or even identifying an individuals vaccination records, school records, or SAT scores. That has become more important today than in centuries past because of electronic recordkeeping. By default, the social security number has become that unique identifier. Absent the social security number, the government would have to create some other identifying number that is both (1) unique to every individual in the US, and (2) permanent.

Even driver's licenses do not serve this function because there are over 50 jurisdictions that issue drivers licenses and people's drivers licenses change over time as they move from state to state. If, for example, you want to sell a piece of property that you bought 6 states away and 50 years (20 driver's licenses ago) how do you identify that it is actually YOUR property that you are trying to sell and not one of the other 20,000 Josh Smith's out there? And how does the clerk in the title office 6 states away prevent some other Josh Smith from selling your property out from under you and disappearing with the cash? That is one of the reasons you can't buy and sell property without a social security number or the equivalent TIN. Title companies won't clear the transaction unless they can conduct a search to determine if there are any judgements against you that might generate a lien on the property. And they use social security numbers to do that.

It is also for your protection. If some debt collector comes calling saying that you owe $100,000 in debts, how do you prove that it isn't your debt and that the debt was accrued by one of the other 20,000 Josh Smiths out there?

So while a few quirky individuals living hermit lives off the grid may be able to get away without having any sort of ID number attached to their name. The government, financial system, and even educational system can't really function without being able to uniquely identify each individual. And if we don't use social security numbers for that purpose we would need to create a whole new national ID program like in every other modern country where each citizen and resident is issued a permanent and unique national ID number. Even the Amish have social security numbers even if they don't participate in the social security insurance program.

You lost me as soon as you got to the part about your fantasy that buying or selling property couldn't be done without a SSN or TIN.

You might be able to sell a piece of property privately to someone you know. But try to do a normal arms length property transaction with title insurance and a mortgage involved (either yours or your buyer's). You will quickly find that the title company will require your SS or TIN number in order to insure that there are no judgements out there that could attach to the property.

But even in private sales both the IRS and most local state/tax authorities require that the sale be reported under your social security number. And title companies transacting sales of property are required by to file a 1099-S to the IRS with your social security number or Tax ID number.

[ken_sylvania]

Aren't you the same person who just started another thread about how people should be required to identify themselves?

The fact is local, state, and federal governments and other institutions like banks need some way to uniquely identify and distinguish individuals from each other. Names, signatures, addresses, and birth dates will not do that because those are either not permanent or unique or both. For example, here in the US there are over 38,000 people named James Smith, 32,000 named Maria Garcia, and 34,000 named Michael Smith. Many of whom have matching birth dates or matching addresses (when children are named after parents which is common).

So every government and non-government institution needs some way to uniquely identify every John Smith or Maria Garcia so that they know they have the right one when tracking taxes, identifying the owners of properties, identifying the owners of bank accounts, or even identifying an individuals vaccination records, school records, or SAT scores. That has become more important today than in centuries past because of electronic recordkeeping. By default, the social security number has become that unique identifier. Absent the social security number, the government would have to create some other identifying number that is both (1) unique to every individual in the US, and (2) permanent.

Even driver's licenses do not serve this function because there are over 50 jurisdictions that issue drivers licenses and people's drivers licenses change over time as they move from state to state. If, for example, you want to sell a piece of property that you bought 6 states away and 50 years (20 driver's licenses ago) how do you identify that it is actually YOUR property that you are trying to sell and not one of the other 20,000 Josh Smith's out there? And how does the clerk in the title office 6 states away prevent some other Josh Smith from selling your property out from under you and disappearing with the cash? That is one of the reasons you can't buy and sell property without a social security number or the equivalent TIN. Title companies won't clear the transaction unless they can conduct a search to determine if there are any judgements against you that might generate a lien on the property. And they use social security numbers to do that.

It is also for your protection. If some debt collector comes calling saying that you owe $100,000 in debts, how do you prove that it isn't your debt and that the debt was accrued by one of the other 20,000 Josh Smiths out there?

So while a few quirky individuals living hermit lives off the grid may be able to get away without having any sort of ID number attached to their name. The government, financial system, and even educational system can't really function without being able to uniquely identify each individual. And if we don't use social security numbers for that purpose we would need to create a whole new national ID program like in every other modern country where each citizen and resident is issued a permanent and unique national ID number. Even the Amish have social security numbers even if they don't participate in the social security insurance program.

You lost me as soon as you got to the part about your fantasy that buying or selling property couldn't be done without a SSN or TIN.

You might be able to sell a piece of property privately to someone you know. But try to do a normal arms length property transaction with title insurance and a mortgage involved (either yours or your buyer's). You will quickly find that the title company will require your SS or TIN number in order to insure that there are no judgements out there that could attach to the property.

But even in private sales both the IRS and most local state/tax authorities require that the sale be reported under your social security number. And title companies transacting sales of property are required by to file a 1099-S to the IRS with your social security number or Tax ID number.

All the real estate transactions I've done have been normal arms-length property transactions. Some with and some without title insurance. SSN not required. Form 1099-S has nothing to do with the buyer's SSN, and is only required to be filed for the seller in certain situations.

[Ken]

You lost me as soon as you got to the part about your fantasy that buying or selling property couldn't be done without a SSN or TIN.

You might be able to sell a piece of property privately to someone you know. But try to do a normal arms length property transaction with title insurance and a mortgage involved (either yours or your buyer's). You will quickly find that the title company will require your SS or TIN number in order to insure that there are no judgements out there that could attach to the property.

But even in private sales both the IRS and most local state/tax authorities require that the sale be reported under your social security number. And title companies transacting sales of property are required by to file a 1099-S to the IRS with your social security number or Tax ID number.

All the real estate transactions I've done have been normal arms-length property transactions. Some with and some without title insurance. SSN not required. Form 1099-S has nothing to do with the buyer's SSN, and is only required to be filed for the seller in certain situations.

Nevertheless, most title companies will require your social security number. Not just for filing the 1099-S for the seller, but also to comply with FIRPTA withholding requirements that apply to the seller. As well as to conduct the title search for outstanding tax liens. It is a standard form for real estate transactions. And they would be foolish to provide title insurance and release escrow without doing those things, and could potentially be held liable.

And even if you personally can figure out some way to avoid providing SSN for certain transactions, doesn't mean that governments and other don't need some unique and permanent identifying number for every unique individual. They do. The modern economy and modern government require some means of uniquely identifying every individual for a vast number of reasons. And if the SSN did not already exist, they would have to create some new national ID system to replace it just like in every other country.

[Josh]

The alternative is a national ID like most other countries.

Which would you rather have?

The alternative is not having one at all.

Aren't you the same person who just started another thread about how people should be required to identify themselves?

Yes, but "identifying yourself" means stating what your name is and possibly your address or birthdate or some other identifying characteristic. There is no requirement that somehow get some number assigned and then cart around an ID card proving that you, well, have a face.

The fact is local, state, and federal governments and other institutions like banks need some way to uniquely identify and distinguish individuals from each other. Names, signatures, addresses, and birth dates will not do that because those are either not permanent or unique or both. For example, here in the US there are over 38,000 people named James Smith, 32,000 named Maria Garcia, and 34,000 named Michael Smith. Many of whom have matching birth dates or matching addresses (when children are named after parents which is common).

There are plenty of ways to do this without a national ID card.

If, for example, you want to sell a piece of property that you bought 6 states away and 50 years (20 driver's licenses ago) how do you identify that it is actually YOUR property that you are trying to sell and not one of the other 20,000 Josh Smith's out there?

You don't. When buying and selling property, no IDs are shown. I never had to show ID when I bought a piece of property, nor when I did a transfer to change what the deed was titled to.

And how does the clerk in the title office 6 states away prevent some other Josh Smith from selling your property out from under you and disappearing with the cash? That is one of the reasons you can't buy and sell property without a social security number or the equivalent TIN.

Incorrect. You can buy and sell property all day long (at least in my state) without ever disclosing an SSN, ITIN, etc.

Title companies won't clear the transaction unless they can conduct a search to determine if there are any judgements against you that might generate a lien on the property. And they use social security numbers to do that.

Incorrect. In fact, part of a title search is searching for judgments, etc. against someone WITHOUT a social security number or else important stuff might get missed. They do partial matches on a name, looking for things like misspellings or nicknames and so forth.

It is also for your protection. If some debt collector comes calling saying that you owe $100,000 in debts, how do you prove that it isn't your debt and that the debt was accrued by one of the other 20,000 Josh Smiths out there?

The burden of proof is on them to prove it, not me; I presume they would need to show some contract with a signature on it.

So while a few quirky individuals living hermit lives off the grid may be able to get away without having any sort of ID number attached to their name. The government, financial system, and even educational system can't really function without being able to uniquely identify each individual. And if we don't use social security numbers for that purpose we would need to create a whole new national ID program like in every other modern country where each citizen and resident is issued a permanent and unique national ID number. Even the Amish have social security numbers even if they don't participate in the social security insurance program.

Yes, Ken, I'm aware you think a massive national (or international) database is a good thing. I don't think it is, and numerous experts also agree that these kind of giant databases have severe privacy and liberty concerns. And in the modern era, they aren't needed.

[Ken]

The alternative is not having one at all.

Aren't you the same person who just started another thread about how people should be required to identify themselves?

Yes, but "identifying yourself" means stating what your name is and possibly your address or birthdate or some other identifying characteristic. There is no requirement that somehow get some number assigned and then cart around an ID card proving that you, well, have a face.

The fact is local, state, and federal governments and other institutions like banks need some way to uniquely identify and distinguish individuals from each other. Names, signatures, addresses, and birth dates will not do that because those are either not permanent or unique or both. For example, here in the US there are over 38,000 people named James Smith, 32,000 named Maria Garcia, and 34,000 named Michael Smith. Many of whom have matching birth dates or matching addresses (when children are named after parents which is common).

There are plenty of ways to do this without a national ID card.

If, for example, you want to sell a piece of property that you bought 6 states away and 50 years (20 driver's licenses ago) how do you identify that it is actually YOUR property that you are trying to sell and not one of the other 20,000 Josh Smith's out there?

You don't. When buying and selling property, no IDs are shown. I never had to show ID when I bought a piece of property, nor when I did a transfer to change what the deed was titled to.

And how does the clerk in the title office 6 states away prevent some other Josh Smith from selling your property out from under you and disappearing with the cash? That is one of the reasons you can't buy and sell property without a social security number or the equivalent TIN.

Incorrect. You can buy and sell property all day long (at least in my state) without ever disclosing an SSN, ITIN, etc.

Title companies won't clear the transaction unless they can conduct a search to determine if there are any judgements against you that might generate a lien on the property. And they use social security numbers to do that.

Incorrect. In fact, part of a title search is searching for judgments, etc. against someone WITHOUT a social security number or else important stuff might get missed. They do partial matches on a name, looking for things like misspellings or nicknames and so forth.

It is also for your protection. If some debt collector comes calling saying that you owe $100,000 in debts, how do you prove that it isn't your debt and that the debt was accrued by one of the other 20,000 Josh Smiths out there?

The burden of proof is on them to prove it, not me; I presume they would need to show some contract with a signature on it.

So while a few quirky individuals living hermit lives off the grid may be able to get away without having any sort of ID number attached to their name. The government, financial system, and even educational system can't really function without being able to uniquely identify each individual. And if we don't use social security numbers for that purpose we would need to create a whole new national ID program like in every other modern country where each citizen and resident is issued a permanent and unique national ID number. Even the Amish have social security numbers even if they don't participate in the social security insurance program.

Yes, Ken, I'm aware you think a massive national (or international) database is a good thing. I don't think it is, and numerous experts also agree that these kind of giant databases have severe privacy and liberty concerns. And in the modern era, they aren't needed.

All of your examples are about how a particular INDIVIDUAL might get by in life and might manage to do certain transactions without providing a social security number. Which completely misses the point.

The point is that government and private institutions that administer large scale programs or services for millions of people need to be able to distinguish between the vast numbers of people with identical names and in many cases identical birth dates and inconsistent or identical addresses. To do that effectively they need some sort of permanent and unique identifying number with which to identify people. If social security numbers didn't already exist they would have to invent something similar to take its place such as a national ID number. Once these systems are up and running then they can accommodate the quirky odd person who might not have a social security number by assigning them some other number. But that only works because they are so few. You could not build such systems from scratch and operate them efficiently without being able to uniquely identify every person in your system.

Bank of America, for example, has 69 million individual and business customers. That means they are going to have vast numbers of people (and businesses) with identical names, birth dates, and addresses. And they will need to report to the government about transactions made by vast numbers of these clients. As well as make sure billions of transactions of money coming in and out of their system come from and go to the right people. The first thing that any data base manager would tell them is that if they don't already have a unique and permanent identifying number for every individual in their system, they would need to invent one. And make sure it matches those used by all the other private and government institutions with whom they interact. And it also serves as a verification tool in the even that anyone ever mis-spells a name or address or birth date. Which also happens all the time.

[RZehr]

The ID requirements and procedures and customs of buying real estate in 2004 PA are different than in Oregon in 2017.

[Josh]

The point is that government and private institutions that administer large scale programs or services for millions of people need to be able to distinguish between the vast numbers of people with identical names and in many cases identical birth dates and even identical addresses. To do that effectively they need some sort of permanent and unique identifying number with which to identify people. If social security numbers didn't already exist they would have to invent something similar to take its place such as a national ID number. Once these systems are up and running then they can accommodate the quirky odd person who might not have a social security number by assigning them some other number. But that only works because they are so few. You could not build such systems from scratch and operate them efficiently without being able to uniquely identify every person in your system.

None of what you said means that we need a national ID card and national ID number system.

Bank of America, for example, has 69 million individual and business customers. That means they are going to have vast numbers of people (and businesses) with identical names, birth dates, and addresses. And they will need to report to the government about transactions made by vast numbers of these clients.

No, they don't. Banks don't report information tot he government about transactions made by customers. There are special circumstances when reports are made, which have nothing to do with whether or not someone has a social security number.

Anyone who is busy structuring transactions probably has already set up LLCs (which don't require an SSN to set up) and they would have their own tax IDs assigned (if they wanted to). So government anti fraud stuff has to take things like that into account.

As well as make sure billions of transactions of money coming in and out of their system come from and go to the right people. The first thing that any data base manager would tell them is that if they don't already have a unique and permanent identifying number for every individual in their system, they would need to invent one. And make sure it matches those used by all the other private and government institutions with whom they interact. And it also serves as a verification tool in the even that anyone ever mis-spells a name or address or birth date. Which also happens all the time.

I am someone who has actually, well, worked for Bank of America (as a customer), amongst other banks, and they do not use social security numbers as any kind of global identifier at all. They use other, proprietary techniques (as do other large financial institutions) to identify people.

Again, none of this means a national ID number scheme is needed.