College Turmoil

[Josh]

One of those funny moments when I find myself in complete agreement with Ken, and temporal1 is faithfully parroting the current right wing outrage talking points (which I strongly disagree with).

[Ken]

One of those funny moments when I find myself in complete agreement with Ken, and temporal1 is faithfully parroting the current right wing outrage talking points (which I strongly disagree with).

Part of the problem is that these college presidents were prepped by a big DC law firm that specializes in prepping people who are in legal jeopardy when testifying before Congress. So like when Hillary Clinton testified at the Benghazi hearings, or all the testimony during Trump's impeachment hearings.

However none of these college presidents were in any sort of legal jeopardy at all. They were not there for any sort of legal investigation. Rather, they were there as part of a political show. And they would have been far better served had they taken a political and PR approach to the hearing rather than a legalistic one. And relied more on political consultants and PR people to guide them. Lesson #1 here is don't let attorneys answer political questions. The result will always be legalistic and wooden. Lawyers are why you have 200-page legal disclosures to click through when you install some new software.

But the fact that they didn't seem to understand what kind of game was afoot is completely on them. We are talking about the presidents of the 1st, 5th and 6th richest universities in the world (in the history of the world actually) and all of those three presidents are earning multi-million dollar salaries to be the outward faces of their universities and navigate these sorts of waters. The last UPenn president retired with a $21 million golden parachute. For that sort of money one expects political competence.

[temporal1]

One of those funny moments when I find myself in complete agreement with Ken, and temporal1 is faithfully parroting the current right wing outrage talking points (which I strongly disagree with).

ach. how will i sleep at night?!

because i don’t follow .. news .. i have no idea what you’re talking about. i nearly always agree with HK, this topic is no exception.
i’ve listened to a number of Ben Shapiro, Gad Saad videos - understanding they are unapologetically and obviously biased;
i don’t apologize for trying to avoid reading/hearing what Hamas has to say. October 7 was indefensible.

i understand you don’t view videos, i respect that and i’m not requesting you do. i presume it means we’re not always talking about the same reports. i’m aware Ben S gets a lot of general criticism.

on this, he seems consistent, he holds Hamas responsible for Oct 7, he is strongly for free speech, he used Skokie as an example (i agree, knowing about Skokie over decades of my life) - regarding the universities, he’s asking for consistency in policies, which i find reasonable.

i’ve “had a beef” with major universities for years, my family valued higher ed to a great extent, made lots of personal sacrifices for it, my husband was a generous donor and supporter in his lifetime. he died in 2007. i began regretting EVERY DIME, including tax dollars, donations, that my family paid in support of gov schools - when i realized how hijacked they’d become, for lib partisan politics.

Ben S addresses this, how only a small fraction of professors across the board are conservative; he had numbers, i don’t.
LIB IVORY TOWERS

In my real life, i noticed, my husband’s generosity was “nothing,” even donations of a single million dollars aren’t much, it takes multimillion dollar donations to show on their radar.

As a bystander, i’m wondering if Hamas will INADVERTANTLY lead to any sort of fundamental correction in this ridiculously imbalanced system? My main curiosity isn’t even about Israel/Gaza. Not to diminish the horrifying situation in any way.

BILL MAHER ISN’T ALWAYS WRONG. (contains coarse language, as usual for him)

When Does Free Speech Cross the Line? | Real Time with Bill Maher (HBO) / 6min

Description:
“FIRE president Greg Lukianoff
joins Bill Maher to discuss the standard for free expression on college campuses.”

Elise Stefanik
For those who count themselves as pro-women in business, education, professions, etc., no matter politics, any fair assessment of her presentation when questioning the 3 wholly synchronized and over-prepared “presidents” would have to be appreciation of her work.
She was clear and to the point, not rushing, allowing extra time for them to think and rethink their answers. She was generous.

She was great, shame on anyone for attempting to suggest otherwise.
To criticize her simply reflects inability to appreciate anyone who isn’t in lockstep with your bias.

The 3 are solely responsible for revealing how trite and unprepared they were. This is not the minor leagues.

More needs to be revealed, until gov ed, Pre-K thru college, is seriously overhauled.
The U.S. Public Treasury should not be a bottomless petty cash drawer for lib partisan politics. That practice needs to be ended.
It won’t auto-correct.

[Valerie]

One of those funny moments when I find myself in complete agreement with Ken, and temporal1 is faithfully parroting the current right wing outrage talking points (which I strongly disagree with).

ach. how will i sleep at night?!

because i don’t follow .. news .. i have no idea what you’re talking about. i nearly always agree with HK, this topic is no exception.
i’ve listened to a number of Ben Shapiro, Gad Saad videos - understanding they are unapologetically and obviously biased;
i don’t apologize for trying to avoid reading/hearing what Hamas has to say. October 7 was indefensible.

i understand you don’t view videos, i respect that and i’m not requesting you do. i presume it means we’re not always talking about the same reports. i’m aware Ben S gets a lot of general criticism.

on this, he seems consistent, he holds Hamas responsible for Oct 7, he is strongly for free speech, he used Skokie as an example (i agree, knowing about Skokie over decades of my life) - regarding the universities, he’s asking for consistency in policies, which i find reasonable.

i’ve “had a beef” with major universities for years, my family valued higher ed to a great extent, made lots of personal sacrifices for it, my husband was a generous donor and supporter in his lifetime. he died in 2007. i began regretting EVERY DIME, including tax dollars, donations, that my family paid in support of gov schools - when i realized how hijacked they’d become, for lib partisan politics.

Ben S addresses this, how only a small fraction of professors across the board are conservative; he had numbers, i don’t.
LIB IVORY TOWERS

In my real life, i noticed, my husband’s generosity was “nothing,” even donations of a single million dollars aren’t much, it takes multimillion dollar donations to show on their radar.

As a bystander, i’m wondering if Hamas will INADVERTANTLY lead to any sort of fundamental correction in this ridiculously imbalanced system? My main curiosity isn’t even about Israel/Gaza. Not to diminish the horrifying situation in any way.

BILL MAHER ISN’T ALWAYS WRONG. (contains coarse language, as usual for him)

When Does Free Speech Cross the Line? | Real Time with Bill Maher (HBO) / 6min

Description:
“FIRE president Greg Lukianoff
joins Bill Maher to discuss the standard for free expression on college campuses.”

Elise Stefanik
For those who count themselves as pro-women in business, education, professions, etc., no matter politics, any fair assessment of her presentation when questioning the 3 wholly synchronized and over-prepared “presidents” would have to be appreciation of her work.
She was clear and to the point, not rushing, allowing extra time for them to think and rethink their answers. She was generous.

She was great, shame on anyone for attempting to suggest otherwise.
To criticize her simply reflects inability to appreciate anyone who isn’t in lockstep with your bias.

The 3 are solely responsible for revealing how trite and unprepared they were. This is not the minor leagues.

More needs to be revealed, until gov ed, Pre-K thru college, is seriously overhauled.
The U.S. Public Treasury should not be a bottomless petty cash drawer for lib partisan politics. That practice needs to be ended.
It won’t auto-correct.

I agree. I really don't worry about the lefts viewpoint in this and do not consider it an insult to agree with the right on this terrible situation (there's a reason they're called "right" ) and I too have lear MN ed to value HKs perspective on any given topic here.

I do realize if one is limited by their church of news sources they may be missing important pieces but as in all things the left & right are truly divided on all things. Biden has been supportive of Israel and had a Hannakuh observance of some type yesterday at the Capitol which was admirable.

[Valerie]

One of those funny moments when I find myself in complete agreement with Ken, and temporal1 is faithfully parroting the current right wing outrage talking points (which I strongly disagree with).

ach. how will i sleep at night?!

because i don’t follow .. news .. i have no idea what you’re talking about. i nearly always agree with HK, this topic is no exception.
i’ve listened to a number of Ben Shapiro, Gad Saad videos - understanding they are unapologetically and obviously biased;
i don’t apologize for trying to avoid reading/hearing what Hamas has to say. October 7 was indefensible.

i understand you don’t view videos, i respect that and i’m not requesting you do. i presume it means we’re not always talking about the same reports. i’m aware Ben S gets a lot of general criticism.

on this, he seems consistent, he holds Hamas responsible for Oct 7, he is strongly for free speech, he used Skokie as an example (i agree, knowing about Skokie over decades of my life) - regarding the universities, he’s asking for consistency in policies, which i find reasonable.

i’ve “had a beef” with major universities for years, my family valued higher ed to a great extent, made lots of personal sacrifices for it, my husband was a generous donor and supporter in his lifetime. he died in 2007. i began regretting EVERY DIME, including tax dollars, donations, that my family paid in support of gov schools - when i realized how hijacked they’d become, for lib partisan politics.

Ben S addresses this, how only a small fraction of professors across the board are conservative; he had numbers, i don’t.
LIB IVORY TOWERS

In my real life, i noticed, my husband’s generosity was “nothing,” even donations of a single million dollars aren’t much, it takes multimillion dollar donations to show on their radar.

As a bystander, i’m wondering if Hamas will INADVERTANTLY lead to any sort of fundamental correction in this ridiculously imbalanced system? My main curiosity isn’t even about Israel/Gaza. Not to diminish the horrifying situation in any way.

BILL MAHER ISN’T ALWAYS WRONG. (contains coarse language, as usual for him)

When Does Free Speech Cross the Line? | Real Time with Bill Maher (HBO) / 6min

Description:
“FIRE president Greg Lukianoff
joins Bill Maher to discuss the standard for free expression on college campuses.”

Elise Stefanik
For those who count themselves as pro-women in business, education, professions, etc., no matter politics, any fair assessment of her presentation when questioning the 3 wholly synchronized and over-prepared “presidents” would have to be appreciation of her work.
She was clear and to the point, not rushing, allowing extra time for them to think and rethink their answers. She was generous.

She was great, shame on anyone for attempting to suggest otherwise.
To criticize her simply reflects inability to appreciate anyone who isn’t in lockstep with your bias.

The 3 are solely responsible for revealing how trite and unprepared they were. This is not the minor leagues.

More needs to be revealed, until gov ed, Pre-K thru college, is seriously overhauled.
The U.S. Public Treasury should not be a bottomless petty cash drawer for lib partisan politics. That practice needs to be ended.
It won’t auto-correct.

I agree. I really don't worry about the lefts viewpoint in this and do not consider it an insult to agree with the right on this terrible situation (there's a reason they're called "right" ) and I too have lear MN ed to value HKs perspective on any given topic here.

I do realize if one is limited by their church of news sources they may be missing important pieces but as in all things the left & right are truly divided on all things. Biden has been supportive of Israel and had a Hanakkuh observance of some type yesterday at the Capitol which was admirable

[temporal1]

ach. how will i sleep at night?!

because i don’t follow .. news .. i have no idea what you’re talking about. i nearly always agree with HK, this topic is no exception.
i’ve listened to a number of Ben Shapiro, Gad Saad videos - understanding they are unapologetically and obviously biased;
i don’t apologize for trying to avoid reading/hearing what Hamas has to say. October 7 was indefensible.

i understand you don’t view videos, i respect that and i’m not requesting you do. i presume it means we’re not always talking about the same reports. i’m aware Ben S gets a lot of general criticism.

on this, he seems consistent, he holds Hamas responsible for Oct 7, he is strongly for free speech, he used Skokie as an example (i agree, knowing about Skokie over decades of my life) - regarding the universities, he’s asking for consistency in policies, which i find reasonable.

i’ve “had a beef” with major universities for years, my family valued higher ed to a great extent, made lots of personal sacrifices for it, my husband was a generous donor and supporter in his lifetime. he died in 2007. i began regretting EVERY DIME, including tax dollars, donations, that my family paid in support of gov schools - when i realized how hijacked they’d become, for lib partisan politics.

Ben S addresses this, how only a small fraction of professors across the board are conservative; he had numbers, i don’t.
LIB IVORY TOWERS

In my real life, i noticed, my husband’s generosity was “nothing,” even donations of a single million dollars aren’t much, it takes multimillion dollar donations to show on their radar.

As a bystander, i’m wondering if Hamas will INADVERTANTLY lead to any sort of fundamental correction in this ridiculously imbalanced system? My main curiosity isn’t even about Israel/Gaza. Not to diminish the horrifying situation in any way.

BILL MAHER ISN’T ALWAYS WRONG. (contains coarse language, as usual for him)

When Does Free Speech Cross the Line? | Real Time with Bill Maher (HBO) / 6min



Elise Stefanik
For those who count themselves as pro-women in business, education, professions, etc., no matter politics, any fair assessment of her presentation when questioning the 3 wholly synchronized and over-prepared “presidents” would have to be appreciation of her work.
She was clear and to the point, not rushing, allowing extra time for them to think and rethink their answers. She was generous.

She was great, shame on anyone for attempting to suggest otherwise.
To criticize her simply reflects inability to appreciate anyone who isn’t in lockstep with your bias.

The 3 are solely responsible for revealing how trite and unprepared they were. This is not the minor leagues.

More needs to be revealed, until gov ed, Pre-K thru college, is seriously overhauled.
The U.S. Public Treasury should not be a bottomless petty cash drawer for lib partisan politics. That practice needs to be ended.
It won’t auto-correct.

I agree. I really don't worry about the lefts viewpoint in this and do not consider it an insult to agree with the right on this terrible situation (there's a reason they're called "right" ) and I too have lear MN ed to value HKs perspective on any given topic here.

I do realize if one is limited by their church of news sources they may be missing important pieces but as in all things the left & right are truly divided on all things. Biden has been supportive of Israel and had a Hanakkuh observance of some type yesterday at the Capitol which was admirable

Good to hear from you, Valerie.
The state of things in the world are hard to deal with, so much suffering, so much of it deliberate.

[Josh]

t1,

Ben Shapiro operates a news/media outlet called "The Daily Wire". You seem very up to date on whatever Ben Shapiro is saying, so I'd venture to say that, yes, you do watch the news and keep up with it.

[Josh]

on this, he seems consistent, he holds Hamas responsible for Oct 7, he is strongly for free speech, he used Skokie as an example (i agree, knowing about Skokie over decades of my life) - regarding the universities, he’s asking for consistency in policies, which i find reasonable.

Virtually every person holds Hamas responsible for Oct. 7. But that begs the question of why Hamas was allowed to operate with impunity in the first place and a much more powerful nation and military got suprised by the attack at a supposedly well defended border, and then was unable to respond for hours. And the bigger question is why Hamas was allowed to grow to the degree it was in the first place. And those are the questions many Israelis are asking and why there is a lot of legitimate criticism of Netanyahu. (Ben Shapiro is a staunch Netanyahu supporter and always has been.)

i’ve “had a beef” with major universities for years, my family valued higher ed to a great extent, made lots of personal sacrifices for it, my husband was a generous donor and supporter in his lifetime. he died in 2007. i began regretting EVERY DIME, including tax dollars, donations, that my family paid in support of gov schools - when i realized how hijacked they’d become, for lib partisan politics.

As you know from my posting history, I've had a beef with them too - but - that doesn't connect at all with why you're cheering on university presidents being hauled in front of Congress and then cancelled because they weren't willing to take a hard stance against freedom of political speech.

More needs to be revealed, until gov ed, Pre-K thru college, is seriously overhauled.
The U.S. Public Treasury should not be a bottomless petty cash drawer for lib partisan politics. That practice needs to be ended.
It won’t auto-correct.

The universities in question are private and run on donor money. As far as receiving government funds, I guess you could argue they get some in the form of student loans, but you seem to be tilting at windmills here.

[Josh]

I agree. I really don't worry about the lefts viewpoint in this and do not consider it an insult to agree with the right on this terrible situation (there's a reason they're called "right" ) and I too have lear MN ed to value HKs perspective on any given topic here.

I do realize if one is limited by their church of news sources they may be missing important pieces but as in all things the left & right are truly divided on all things. Biden has been supportive of Israel and had a Hannakuh observance of some type yesterday at the Capitol which was admirable.

This post is a great example of the polarised, us-vs-them thinking that dominates modern political discourse.

[HondurasKeiser]

.. whatever you say, Ken.

At least Liz M has the decency to admit wrong.

Just because they were legally right, doesn't mean they were politically astute in their answers. The were deliberately led into a trap by Stefanik and then forced to resort to legalese in what were legally correct but politically damaging answers. I suppose it would have been better had they lied on the stand and gave the politically convenient answer?

Because what they gave was actually the precise legally correct answer to the question. How a university responds to provocative speech does depend on the context. What is said by a student in some late-night discussion with a few friends in a random dorm lounge or cafe is held to a different standard from a professor speaking to 500 students with a megaphone at some an officially sanctioned event on the main quad of campus. And what some random student puts on a flier and tacks to a bulletin board is different from what an officially sponsored student group puts on university-sponsored web page or university-published newsletter.

Woah, Woah Admiral Akbar - it wasn't in fact a trap. Enough dissembling. We both know that Empress Palpatine, I mean Representative Stefanik, was not referring to dorm room bull sessions but rather ongoing student and professor-led protests that chanted things that are, in 2023 (not 1977) and especially after October 7th, interpreted as a call for the liquidation of Israel and the genocide of worldwide Jewry. Josh Shapiro, John Fetterman, Joe Biden, the 2nd Gentleman, Karine Jean Pierre, Hakeem Jeffries, and Chuck Schumer all agree that chanting "From the River to the Sea" and "Globalize the Intifada" are thinly veiled slogans for genocide and violent uprising. Indeed, it seems ex-president Magill recognizes that too.

How do Hamas and their supporters use those slogans? Immediately after October 7th (like the weekend after) and prior to any Israeli retaliation, those were the slogans being chanted on campuses and in cities around the world. These were protests in favor of the evil that Hamas wrought. Now, suddenly because in the proceeding few weeks Israel has began to fight back, miraculously the same people chanting the slogans are doing so from a place of respect and harmonious coexistence? You know this how?

Context may matter - sort of....but does it really? What might happen if in a dorm room chat a young fella popped off about no gays or blacks being allowed on campus or simply in his dorm and there were a gay or black person present? How long do you think it would take the DEI wheels to start churning and seriously discipling, if not outright expelling, that student if the offended party had complained to the right people? At the end of the day, no one watching those inept and inarticulate presidents believes that they care a fig about free speech. If they did, Amy Wax would be able to teach at UPenn and Ronald Sullivan wouldn't have been fired (by Gay in a different capacity) from Harvard.

As it is, there is a way to both protect free speech on campus and keep hateful, bigoted protests from overtaking the community:

...the presidents’ position is no principled stand; it’s a dodge. If they were really interested in taking a Constitution-based approach to advancing speech in a content-neutral way, they could enforce constitutionally permissible limitations on speech known as “time, place, and manner” restrictions. In short: they could take a stand, not against disruptive speech but disruptive action.

Many anti-Israel agitators have violated with impunity rules regulating the times, places, and manners of expression. At Penn, for instance, students vandalized university buildings with anti-Israel messages and occupied them for hours. At Harvard, hordes invaded classes with bullhorn-amplified chants of “globalize the Intifada!” At MIT, students chanted “free, free Palestine!” in a math class. Dozens of similar incidents have piled up across the country, with students emboldened to keep exceeding the bounds of acceptable expression because they know that university leadership won’t stop them.

If they really wanted to, campus presidents could put a swift end to such intimidation with strict enforcement of content-neutral rules that anti-Israel students violate regularly. They could punish the individuals responsible for making campus a hostile place for Jews without discriminating based on the content of speech.

- Tal Fortang, City Journal