Dispensationalism, John Darby, etc.

[gcdonner]

I suggest that you study what the phrase "this generation" means before you re-interpret it to suit your theology.

It means "offspring" or "race". Matt 12:39.

And yes, the offspring of God's People have survived even unto this day, and will be here when Christ returns.

You are absolutely incorrect. It is not used this way in the NT or for that matter in the OT. The term is most often referring to the contemporaneous group of people living at that time and in scripture is often considered to be a 40 year period. Again I won't hijack this thread to answer your assertions.

[JohnHurt]

JohnHurt you have some interesting beliefs, some of which I have not run across before. Is there a Christian group or denomination that preaches your beliefs or are these your personal beliefs and convictions only ? I have not run across anyone or group that would view Paul as a heretic, not to say they don't exist.

Douglas Del Tondo has a website at this link, where he discusses the supremacy of Christ over Paul as "Jesus Words Only", or JWO.
https://www.jesuswordsonly.org/
He also does a Zoom weekly online Sabbath service, and provides materials for those that have their own JWO fellowships.

There is a group called the "Hebrew Roots" movement, and they share many of these same beliefs. One of their members is "Daviid H'Notsari" (David the Nazarene), and he has several videos at this link: https://www.youtube.com/@DavidHNotsari

If you search for "false apostle paul" on Google or YouTube you might find others.

There are no mainline churches that hold Christ as superior to Paul, and here is why:

Christ said that we should not accept money for teaching His Words, as we freely received them and so should freely give them (Matt 10:8). Peter also said that we should not take payment (which Peter called "filthy lucre") for teaching Christ to others. 1 Peter 5:2. But every Pauline church begs for money.

Money is what corrupts men like Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, Charles Stanley and others to turn their Christian ministries into money-making machines. They will say whatever you want to hear. All of the Pauline churches take or even demand money from their followers, because Paul told them it was acceptable. 1 Cor 9:11 1 Cor 16:2. And they all have nice buildings, and they are easy to find.

So without paid ministers, or some expensive church building, the groups that hold Christ's teaching as supreme will not be accepting money, won't have a church building, and won't appear as anything more than social gatherings in their homes. You won't find them in the Yellow pages, and they won't show up on some "501c3" government list. They just meet in their homes.

Christ predicted that men like Paul and others would be able to do miracles, signs and wonders, "and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Yes, they have deceived the elect, which is those that were chosen by God, and very few of the elect can see the deception.

I was deceived for a very long time, and probably still do not have it "right". But I am willing to let go of everything in return for the truth.

One of the first things I had to "let go" was Christmas. A friend explained to me that nothing about Christmas has anything to do with Christ, and so it makes a mockery of His Holy Name. December 25th is the birthday of Mithras, the Sun God of Constantine. Giving gifts came from the Roman practice of "Saturnalia', the Christmas tree is pagan, and the elves, flying reindeer and Santa Claus come from some Nordic myth.

I gave that up for the truth that Christmas is blasphemy - that mixing the Holy Name of Christ with paganism uses the Lord's Name in Vain. My wife really had a hard time with it, but finally realized the truth. Three years later, she understood Christmas was all al lie, and quit participating in Christmas at work, too.

As a result, her School Principal (a devout Baptist) fired her as a public school teacher for bringing in a substitute to do the Christmas party (my wife had told the Principal her reasons for not participating.) We filed a lawsuit and got her job back, but she later quit regardless. And we were persecuted by our families for this belief, as her brother has never forgiven us for not "doing Christmas".

Just as Christ predicted:

Matthew 10:(34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

(35) For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

(36) And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

(37) He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

If we are always popular with men or with our family, or popular with the posts we make on some forum, we may not be popular with Christ. We have to count the cost of discipleship. But every time I have experienced persecution, I have found a greater blessing through Christ.

After we were persecuted for Christmas and endured, God gave me a large family with 6 children, and we found that my wife could quit her public school teaching job and stay home and homeschool our children. That was a very great blessing that seemed to follow our persecution. So Christ won't forsake us when we are persecuted, it is all part of our "test" here on earth.

[Heirbyadoption]

I gave that up for the truth that Christmas is blasphemy - that mixing the Holy Name of Christ with paganism uses the Lord's Name in Vain. My wife really had a hard time with it, but finally realized the truth. Three years later, she understood Christmas was all al lie, and quit participating in Christmas at work, too.

As a result, her School Principal (a devout Baptist) fired her as a public school teacher for bringing in a substitute to do the Christmas party (my wife had told the Principal her reasons for not participating.) We filed a lawsuit and got her job back, but she later quit regardless. And we were persecuted by our families for this belief, as her brother has never forgiven us for not "doing Christmas".

John, I don't want to derail you and George's discussion, as it's been somewhat interesting to follow, but a comment in your last post really piqued my interest (see the quote above). So you're pushing for things like no church buildings, no celebration of Christmas, believing that Paul was a deceiver of the elect, etc, etc as some of the ways Christians should honor the Lord...but you're ok filing a lawsuit to rectify where you feel you were wronged for your (or your wife's) beliefs? Do I understand that correctly?

[ohio jones]

So you're pushing for things like no church buildings, no celebration of Christmas, believing that Paul was a deceiver of the elect, etc, etc as some of the ways Christians should honor the Lord...but you're ok filing a lawsuit to rectify where you feel you were wronged for your (or your wife's) beliefs? Do I understand that correctly?

I noticed that too, but then I remembered that the clearest instruction against filing lawsuits comes from Paul, so ...

[Heirbyadoption]

So you're pushing for things like no church buildings, no celebration of Christmas, believing that Paul was a deceiver of the elect, etc, etc as some of the ways Christians should honor the Lord...but you're ok filing a lawsuit to rectify where you feel you were wronged for your (or your wife's) beliefs? Do I understand that correctly?

I noticed that too, but then I remembered that the clearest instruction against filing lawsuits comes from Paul, so ...

I suppose he could fall back on that caveat, but seems like there's enough solid material from Jesus himself (even without Paul's teaching) to keep us from that sort of nonsense...

John, on that note, since you opened that particular can of worms, could you share (succinctly, ideally) with us why you feel Paul was a deceiver, and not an apostle rightfully teaching under the inspiration//authority/direction of the Holy Spirit? Maybe you already explained that somewhere and I missed it, though...? Thanks!

[JohnHurt]

I gave that up for the truth that Christmas is blasphemy - that mixing the Holy Name of Christ with paganism uses the Lord's Name in Vain. My wife really had a hard time with it, but finally realized the truth. Three years later, she understood Christmas was all al lie, and quit participating in Christmas at work, too.

As a result, her School Principal (a devout Baptist) fired her as a public school teacher for bringing in a substitute to do the Christmas party (my wife had told the Principal her reasons for not participating.) We filed a lawsuit and got her job back, but she later quit regardless. And we were persecuted by our families for this belief, as her brother has never forgiven us for not "doing Christmas".

John, I don't want to derail you and George's discussion, as it's been somewhat interesting to follow, but a comment in your last post really piqued my interest (see the quote above). So you're pushing for things like no church buildings, no celebration of Christmas, believing that Paul was a deceiver of the elect, etc, etc as some of the ways Christians should honor the Lord...but you're ok filing a lawsuit to rectify where you feel you were wronged for your (or your wife's) beliefs? Do I understand that correctly?

The lawsuit was wrong, we did not know any better at that time. She was in a teacher's union and had a free attorney. We were broke and desperate. All the attorney did was write a letter and the county backed down and she got her job back. So there was no lawsuit. But the rogue Baptist School Principal didn't get away with it, as she had with other young teachers and ruined their careers (she was a real tyrant). If we have been Jewish, she would have left us alone. Because we are Christian, but don't do Christmas, we were "fair game" to her. My wife was pregnant when she was fired, and got her job back for about 3 months at another school, then she had to leave due to the baby coming early. And God helped us with our finances so that she never went back to public school teaching after that. So maybe we could have "turned the other cheek" and not gone the legal route, and come out just the same, as God had the right plan, more than we did.

From what we know "now", my wife would have never taught public school in the first place. Life is a series of steps, where you make mistakes, and learn how to avoid future ones. The real lesson is that we were persecuted, and could have ended up homeless, but God made a way when there is no way. So God gets the glory, and surviving persecution and seeing how God takes care of us really makes us stronger. So people can make fun of me, call me names, and I don't care. I have already had a lot worse than being called a name.

The early church was like that, they were absolutely fearless, as they had already surrendered everything for Christ. I think about some of the martyrs and what they went through, how everyone called them "crazy", and it gives me hope that I might one day have that much perserverance.

[JohnHurt]

So you're pushing for things like no church buildings, no celebration of Christmas, believing that Paul was a deceiver of the elect, etc, etc as some of the ways Christians should honor the Lord...but you're ok filing a lawsuit to rectify where you feel you were wronged for your (or your wife's) beliefs? Do I understand that correctly?

I noticed that too, but then I remembered that the clearest instruction against filing lawsuits comes from Paul, so ...

Matt 5:(25) Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

(26) Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

I now understand this to mean that you won't get any justice from a man-made judicial system, so Christ said you should just agree with your adversary and never go to court.

I did not know any better.

[JohnHurt]

John, on that note, since you opened that particular can of worms, could you share (succinctly, ideally) with us why you feel Paul was a deceiver, and not an apostle rightfully teaching under the inspiration//authority/direction of the Holy Spirit? Maybe you already explained that somewhere and I missed it, though...? Thanks!

Well, "succinctly, ideally", that made me laugh, as I have a real problem with that.

First, Paul has confessed to his own deceptions:

2 Cor 12:(16) But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

Romans 3:(7) For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

But here is how you know Paul is a deceiver:

First, Christ told you not to believe anyone that claimed to have seen Him in the desert, or in their secret chambers, as when Christ comes back, everyone will see him:

Matt 24:(26) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

(27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Where did Paul see Christ? In the desert. Where did Ananias see Christ? In his secret chambers. Christ said "believe it not". Why do you believe Paul and Ananias, when Christ said not to believe them?

Paul believes that you are saved by faith through grace Eph 2:8-9. Christ said that you are saved by keeping the Commandments Matt 19:16-19, and by taking care of the needs of other people Matt 25:31-46, and by working and using all of your talents that God gave you. Matt 25:14-30.

No church teaches Christ's doctrines, that you will be thrown "into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41) if you don't provide shelter, food, etc for other people. Instead, they tell you Paul's salvation that you have to "keep a thought in their head" and believe in the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ, and "by faith" you are saved, without any real obedience or effort on your part.

Christ also said that the law would never be abolished as long as heaven and earth are here (Matt 5:17-20), while Paul said the law has been "nailed to the cross". Col 2:14. These are contradictory statements, and the churches all follow Paul and reject Christ.

We had never seen a "faith only" doctrine of salvation in the Bible until Paul. Paul has twisted Hab 2:4 from the "just shall live by being faithful" to "faith" using the flawed Septuagint translation. He is also misrepresenting Gen 15:6 where the intention is "Abraham believed in the Lord, and he (Abraham) counted it to him (God) for righteousness. He is deliberately changing these verses to provide some very small foundation for his new doctrine of "faith only".

When James, the brother of Christ, had heard what Paul was teaching, he confronted Paul and asked:

Acts 21:(21) And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

(22) What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

(23) Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

(24) Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Paul does teach against circumcision in his epistles, and against the law of Moses. Yet to deceive James, Paul lied about what he teaches and did the purification rituals to "prove" to James and everyone that he "walkest orderly, and keepest the law".

This proves that Paul is a liar.

Paul was arrested for bring Greeks into the Temple. Acts 21:28
Trophimus was an Ephesian, and Paul wrote to Ephesus that the dividing wall in the Temple was no longer relevant:

Ephesians 2:(14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Trophimus apparently believed this malarky and entered the temple. This is why Paul was arrested, for bring Greeks into the Temple. Acts 21:30

Yet, when Paul get in front of the Sanhedrin, he lies and said that he was arrested for believing in the resurrection. He also denies Christ by claiming to be a Pharisee - just to save his own skin.

Acts 23:(6) But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

No man can serve two masters. You cannot be a Pharisee and a Christian at the same time.

And you can't be a liar one moment, and a truthful prophet of God the next.

The final nail in the coffin of Paul is this: By his fruits ye shall know him.

And here is Paul's fruit: Every false doctrine comes from the writings of Paul.

Like infant baptism, that comes from "original sin", which comes from Paul
Once saved, always saved? Paul
Predestination? Paul
Speaking in Tongues that no one can understand? Paul

Other than someone misconstruing the symbols in the Book of Revelation to be literal, I cannot think of a single false doctrine that does not come from the mind of Paul. James called him "double minded", and if you read Paul, it becomes apparent:

Rom 7:(8) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

(9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

(10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

(11) For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

(12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

(13) Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

(14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

(15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

(16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

(17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

(18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

(19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

(20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

(21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

(22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

(23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Only someone that is mentally ill can write nonsense like this.

And to tell a widow that is 59 years old that the Church cannot help her, or her starving children is ridiculous (1 Tim 5:9), just like it is ridiculous that "in the same chapter" Paul said that an "elder" that "ruleth well" should be paid twice the working man's salary. 1 Tim 5:17

Paul wants to take the church's money from helping the widows and their children, and give it to his rich elder friends. Paul is running a "business" called "church". Look at Creflo Dollar, Charles Stanley, and Joel Osteen. They would not be able to run their "church business" without Paul.

Christ said no one was to take money for teaching His Words. Matt 10:8. Peter called taking money for preaching "filthy lucre". 1 Peter 1:5.

And one thing no one can answer is how and when Paul became an apostle, especially as the "13th apostle."

There can be only 12 apostles: Matt 19:28, Rev 21:14

So when did Christ make Paul into an Apostle? Well, the "Christ" that Paul conjured up never called Paul and Apostle, only a "witness".

So, when did Christ send Paul as a witness/apostle? Was it in Acts 9:15 when Christ spoke to Ananias? Oh, that is right, Christ did not commission Paul, he just told Ananias.

Maybe it was when Paul changed the story, and said he was in a trance in the Temple when Christ spoke to him? Acts 21:17-21

Or maybe it was when Paul forgot all about Ananias, and the "trance" story, and made up a new story and said that Christ spoke to Paul right there on the road to Damascus? Acts 26:16

Which story do you like the best? And why can't Paul keep his stories straight?

And why does Christ say "It is hard for thee to kick against the prickes", when this is a line from a play by Euripides. Did Christ really read Greek plays and plagarize their material as his own? Or was it Paul that read Greek plays?

Paul is the false apostle of Rev 2:2. He taught others to each meat offered to idols Rev 2:14, 1 cor 8, and to commit fornication Rev 2:14 by saying that you don't have to stay married to someone that does not believe like you do. 1 Cor 7:15.

I could go on with this, but it should be obvious that Paul has deceived all of us.

Thanks,

John

[NedFlanders]

John,

You have really done your homework. I can’t say I agree but your effort and inquisitive look at some of those scriptures is somewhat admirable. I appreciate the opportunity to share ideas and look at things openly. You are an encourager to look harder into the Word.

Good bless you

[JohnHurt]

John,

You have really done your homework. I can’t say I agree but your effort and inquisitive look at some of those scriptures is somewhat admirable. I appreciate the opportunity to share ideas and look at things openly. You are an encourager to look harder into the Word.

Good bless you

Thanks, Ned.

One thing we can all agree on, is that Christ should be the focus of our lives.

John 14:(6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And if our discussions makes us study the word, then:

Proverbs 27:(17) Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

An iron file has to have a rough edge to do any good. I appreciate the hard questions with the rough edges.