Dispensationalism, John Darby, etc.

[MaxPC]

Would John Hagee be considered a dispensationalist or another category.

[gcdonner]

Strangely, the one of the 10 commandments that Jesus did not affirm to be "observed" was the Sabbath.

Wouldn't keeping the Sabbath as the 4th Commandment be a little more than a 'jot or tittle"?

I mean, when Christ said "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law" - that takes in a lot of territory, don't you think?
He did say, "till heaven and earth pass", right? At the time he spoke these words, animal sacrifices were still a part of the law, no matter what prophetic writings you quote from the OT. The fact is that much more than one jot or one tittle, did pass from the law contained in 213 different "laws" under the Old Covenant. I suggest you investigate what heaven and earth he had in mind.
In fact, I can't imagine what it does not cover.

In spite of your idea that no ones words other than those (supposedly) of Jesus flies in the face of the transmission of our bible down through the ages. I suggest that you ignore the sovereignty of God to convey his message. You'll accept the teachings of Daniel, but not the words of Peter and Paul? Did they not have divine revelation too? What gives you the authority to determine which parts of the NT are proper and which are not? You are separated by 2000 years from them. If Christ gave his revelations to his disciples, doesn't that make their sharing of those revelations just as authoritative as those words we have put into red letters?

The decision of which books to put into the NT canon was made by the Church of Constantine, namely Athanasius in his "Easter Letter". I think the Council of Hippo had something to do with it.

Constantine worshipped the Sun God, Mithras, who was born on December 25th when the sun starts to regain its power after the winter solstice. Constantine's coins with his image had the words "Committed to the Invincible Sun" on them, long after Constantine "converted" to his form of "churchianity".

The day of Mithras is Sunday, the 1st day of the week, and that is why Constantine had the writings of Paul added to the NT canon, because Paul said the Sabbath was temporary (Col 2:16) and that every day is alike, so there is no Sabbath (Rom 14:5-6). That made Constantine and his wicked priests happy. Even today, the Catholics say that their church is superior to the Bible, as since they had the power to change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, then their church has the power to do anything else. And they laugh at the Protestants that worship on Sunday.
Constantine did not have a church, wasn't even baptized until near death, but only gathered many of the leaders of the then known church. He is blamed for a lot of things, but he did not create the Christian canon. Virtually all of the NT books that we accept today were gathered together around 200AD, long before Constantine and are known as the Muratorian Canon.

An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine:

Q. How prove you that the church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
A. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.
Q. How prove you that?
A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power.[10]
The Augsburg Confession:

They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the decalogue, as it appears; neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the ten commandments.[11]
A Doctrinal Catechism,

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her. She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath#S ... _First-day
I don't adhere to any particular day as "the Sabbath" since we come into "rest/sabbath" when we cease from our own works to gain salvation.

The church of Constantine is the 4th beast, as it thinks it can change "times and laws", like destroying the Sabbath and saying the Law has been abolished in Christ. Daniel 7:25. And their doctrines rest on Paul. This is your prophetic opinion, not biblical fact.

Paul is the test from God as written in Deuteronomy 13:1-6. Paul performed miracles, and gave great signs and wonders, but said to all of us, "let us go and serve other "gods" or lawmakers", like your government, as they are the "ministers of God to thee for good" Romans 13. Paul tells you that you can do whatever you think best, as long as you have faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, then you don't need God's Laws.
This is the test that all of us have been given to find out if we truly love God or not. Love is not worship, love is obedience. Everyone can worship Christ, but very few obey Him.

And if you were to reject Paul and follow Christ, and keep the Sabbath, refrain from unclean food, and follow God's Laws, then you will lose all of your church friends. They will ask you to never come back to their church, which is a really good thing.

Because if you never go back to church, then you never have to deal with celebrating the birth of Christ on December 25th (and you know He was not born on that day), or having to look at their ridiculous pagan Christmas trees, or be asked to celebrate an "egg laying rabbit" on Easter, or eat "Easter Ham", or even the word "Easter" - all of which come from pagan traditions. You can leave it all behind, and follow just Christ.
I don't celebrate christmas or easter...
It is breath taking.

And you will be alone.

Alone like Abraham when he left Ur. Alone like John the Baptist crying in the wilderness. Alone like Christ, with no place to lay His head like the birds and foxes had. But you will be free. Free to follow Christ in purity, and leave all of that man-made garbage behind.

And if you don't have any friends, then you will always have a friend in Christ. He won't forsake you.

Blessings,

John

[gcdonner]

That is one evil looking man. Look at those eyes. Darby's face looks like the Devil himself.

I finally watched it. It's not nearly polemical as that photo portends. It's an academic talk given by a former dispensationalist about the basic history and beliefs of the movement.

I watched part of it. Dispensationalism is around 150 years old, it was never taught by Christ or His 12 Apostles, and does not make any sense, as God does not change. Mal 3:6

Likewise "speaking in tongues" is a relatively new idea from around 1920 AD, and a very bad one at that.
That's strange, I thought the gift of speaking in tongues began on the day of Pentecost, in the first century....

Now they have come up with 'preterism" and say that Christ came back in AD 70. Who makes up this stuff?
I guess you don't believe Christ. Your argument is with him on whether he returned in AD70 or not. It is he who said,

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

I suggest that you study what the phrase "this generation" means before you re-interpret it to suit your theology.
Peter certainly thought that "the end of all things is at hand", before AD70.
Your friend Barnabas also thought that Jesus was about to return when he wrote in the letter to the Hebrews:

Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

Kurt Vonnegut said that "Humans have no immunity to cuckoo ideas."
You've got a few...

If you want to start a cult, all you have to do is move to California, wear a purple robe, and start beating a drum, and they will all line up behind you.

Isn't that what Aimee Simple McPherson did?

Darby just wanted to be famous, and now he is.
Are these things that you are accusing others of, what you are doing?

[Nomad]

Strangely, the one of the 10 commandments that Jesus did not affirm to be "observed" was the Sabbath.

Wouldn't keeping the Sabbath as the 4th Commandment be a little more than a 'jot or tittle"?

I mean, when Christ said "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law" - that takes in a lot of territory, don't you think?

In fact, I can't imagine what it does not cover.

In spite of your idea that no ones words other than those (supposedly) of Jesus flies in the face of the transmission of our bible down through the ages. I suggest that you ignore the sovereignty of God to convey his message. You'll accept the teachings of Daniel, but not the words of Peter and Paul? Did they not have divine revelation too? What gives you the authority to determine which parts of the NT are proper and which are not? You are separated by 2000 years from them. If Christ gave his revelations to his disciples, doesn't that make their sharing of those revelations just as authoritative as those words we have put into red letters?

The decision of which books to put into the NT canon was made by the Church of Constantine, namely Athanasius in his "Easter Letter". I think the Council of Hippo had something to do with it.

Constantine worshipped the Sun God, Mithras, who was born on December 25th when the sun starts to regain its power after the winter solstice. Constantine's coins with his image had the words "Committed to the Invincible Sun" on them, long after Constantine "converted" to his form of "churchianity".

The day of Mithras is Sunday, the 1st day of the week, and that is why Constantine had the writings of Paul added to the NT canon, because Paul said the Sabbath was temporary (Col 2:16) and that every day is alike, so there is no Sabbath (Rom 14:5-6). That made Constantine and his wicked priests happy. Even today, the Catholics say that their church is superior to the Bible, as since they had the power to change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, then their church has the power to do anything else. And they laugh at the Protestants that worship on Sunday.

An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine:

Q. How prove you that the church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
A. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.
Q. How prove you that?
A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power.[10]
The Augsburg Confession:

They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the decalogue, as it appears; neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the ten commandments.[11]
A Doctrinal Catechism,

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her. She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath#S ... _First-day


The church of Constantine is the 4th beast, as it thinks it can change "times and laws", like destroying the Sabbath and saying the Law has been abolished in Christ. Daniel 7:25. And their doctrines rest on Paul.

Paul is the test from God as written in Deuteronomy 13:1-6. Paul performed miracles, and gave great signs and wonders, but said to all of us, "let us go and serve other "gods" or lawmakers", like your government, as they are the "ministers of God to thee for good" Romans 13. Paul tells you that you can do whatever you think best, as long as you have faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, then you don't need God's Laws.
This is the test that all of us have been given to find out if we truly love God or not. Love is not worship, love is obedience. Everyone can worship Christ, but very few obey Him.

And if you were to reject Paul and follow Christ, and keep the Sabbath, refrain from unclean food, and follow God's Laws, then you will lose all of your church friends. They will ask you to never come back to their church, which is a really good thing.

Because if you never go back to church, then you never have to deal with celebrating the birth of Christ on December 25th (and you know He was not born on that day), or having to look at their ridiculous pagan Christmas trees, or be asked to celebrate an "egg laying rabbit" on Easter, or eat "Easter Ham", or even the word "Easter" - all of which come from pagan traditions. You can leave it all behind, and follow just Christ.

It is breath taking.

And you will be alone.

Alone like Abraham when he left Ur. Alone like John the Baptist crying in the wilderness. Alone like Christ, with no place to lay His head like the birds and foxes had. But you will be free. Free to follow Christ in purity, and leave all of that man-made garbage behind.

And if you don't have any friends, then you will always have a friend in Christ. He won't forsake you.

Blessings,

John

Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law or by hearing with faith?

[gcdonner]

Strangely, the one of the 10 commandments that Jesus did not affirm to be "observed" was the Sabbath.

Wouldn't keeping the Sabbath as the 4th Commandment be a little more than a 'jot or tittle"?

I mean, when Christ said "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law" - that takes in a lot of territory, don't you think?

In fact, I can't imagine what it does not cover.

In spite of your idea that no ones words other than those (supposedly) of Jesus flies in the face of the transmission of our bible down through the ages. I suggest that you ignore the sovereignty of God to convey his message. You'll accept the teachings of Daniel, but not the words of Peter and Paul? Did they not have divine revelation too? What gives you the authority to determine which parts of the NT are proper and which are not? You are separated by 2000 years from them. If Christ gave his revelations to his disciples, doesn't that make their sharing of those revelations just as authoritative as those words we have put into red letters?

The decision of which books to put into the NT canon was made by the Church of Constantine, namely Athanasius in his "Easter Letter". I think the Council of Hippo had something to do with it.

Constantine worshipped the Sun God, Mithras, who was born on December 25th when the sun starts to regain its power after the winter solstice. Constantine's coins with his image had the words "Committed to the Invincible Sun" on them, long after Constantine "converted" to his form of "churchianity".

The day of Mithras is Sunday, the 1st day of the week, and that is why Constantine had the writings of Paul added to the NT canon, because Paul said the Sabbath was temporary (Col 2:16) and that every day is alike, so there is no Sabbath (Rom 14:5-6). That made Constantine and his wicked priests happy. Even today, the Catholics say that their church is superior to the Bible, as since they had the power to change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, then their church has the power to do anything else. And they laugh at the Protestants that worship on Sunday.

An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine:

Q. How prove you that the church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
A. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.
Q. How prove you that?
A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power.[10]
The Augsburg Confession:

They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the decalogue, as it appears; neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the ten commandments.[11]
A Doctrinal Catechism,

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her. She could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath#S ... _First-day


The church of Constantine is the 4th beast, as it thinks it can change "times and laws", like destroying the Sabbath and saying the Law has been abolished in Christ. Daniel 7:25. And their doctrines rest on Paul.

Paul is the test from God as written in Deuteronomy 13:1-6. Paul performed miracles, and gave great signs and wonders, but said to all of us, "let us go and serve other "gods" or lawmakers", like your government, as they are the "ministers of God to thee for good" Romans 13. Paul tells you that you can do whatever you think best, as long as you have faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, then you don't need God's Laws.
This is the test that all of us have been given to find out if we truly love God or not. Love is not worship, love is obedience. Everyone can worship Christ, but very few obey Him.

And if you were to reject Paul and follow Christ, and keep the Sabbath, refrain from unclean food, and follow God's Laws, then you will lose all of your church friends. They will ask you to never come back to their church, which is a really good thing.

Because if you never go back to church, then you never have to deal with celebrating the birth of Christ on December 25th (and you know He was not born on that day), or having to look at their ridiculous pagan Christmas trees, or be asked to celebrate an "egg laying rabbit" on Easter, or eat "Easter Ham", or even the word "Easter" - all of which come from pagan traditions. You can leave it all behind, and follow just Christ.

It is breath taking.

And you will be alone.

Alone like Abraham when he left Ur. Alone like John the Baptist crying in the wilderness. Alone like Christ, with no place to lay His head like the birds and foxes had. But you will be free. Free to follow Christ in purity, and leave all of that man-made garbage behind.

And if you don't have any friends, then you will always have a friend in Christ. He won't forsake you.

Blessings,

John

Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law or by hearing with faith?

John will not accept your question since you are quoting the Apostle Paul whom he considers to be a heretic. This is where his kind of isolationist mentality will take you. We don't have the authority or the privilege to question God's sovereignty in how he chose to transmit his Word down to us today. It has all taken place through the Divine use of human frailty. It is this very thing that required Jesus to die in the first place. Our pride and arrogance to think that we somehow know better. It is the lie from the Garden of Eden. "Hath God said...?"

[JohnHurt]

I suggest you investigate what heaven and earth he had in mind.

I think it is the same heavens above our head, and the same earth beneath our feet, as it was in Christ's day. The last time I checked, they were both still there.

Virtually all of the NT books that we accept today were gathered together around 200AD, long before Constantine and are known as the Muratorian Canon.

The Catholics believe the Muratorian fragment was written in 200AD, to bolster their claims. The rest of the world thinks it was written in bad Latin in the 400's, probably by the Catholic church:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muratoria ... p_and_date

Likewise "speaking in tongues" is a relatively new idea from around 1920 AD, and a very bad one at that.
That's strange, I thought the gift of speaking in tongues began on the day of Pentecost, in the first century....

Here is the difference between the "gobbly-gook" speaking in tongues that the 13th "apostle" preached and the modern church accepts, and the "tongues" that the 12 Apostles actually witnessed:

Acts 2:(4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

(5) And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

(6) Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

(7) And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

(8) And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

(9) Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

(10) Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

(11) Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

No "speaking in tongues" church can do this. Speaking in tongues or languages that no one understands is a lie, a deception that Paul originated. The listeners in Acts 2 did not need an "interpreter", they heard in their own language.

Using an interpreter to understand someone ranting in "gobbly gook" was what the Oracle at Delphi did. A young woman would go into a trance, talk nonsense, and the priests would interpret. If the priests made an error and predicted something incorrectly, then it was the interpreter's fault, and the Oracle was blameless. So they could not lose with their deception. And the priests made a lot of money with this very old trick.

Same as today, just different priests. These Pentecostals can even convince you to become your own "oracle" and get you to start jabbering, fall on floor as "slain in the spirit", and other tricks. They play on your emotions, your gullibility, and their doctrines are demonic in origin. When you understand it and witness it, it is heartbreaking to watch.

[JohnHurt]

I suggest that you study what the phrase "this generation" means before you re-interpret it to suit your theology.

It means "offspring" or "race". Matt 12:39.

And yes, the offspring of God's People have survived even unto this day, and will be here when Christ returns.

[JohnHurt]

Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law or by hearing with faith?

Whatever I received, I received from Christ, and He gives it to us freely - and not "by" law or "faith", or by anyone other than Christ and His Prayers for us. Here is proof:

John 14:(16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

(17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

(26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Friends,

All we have to do is to drop every other book in the Bible, and study just the Words of Christ, and His Comforter will teach us and bring to remembrance His Doctrines.

Our problem is that Christ has not been our sole pastor or teacher, even though He tells He is our only source for doctrines: Matt 23:8-10.

Once we elevate Christ as supreme over all of the other Christian writers, then we can accurately judge their writings. But do you even need their writings?

For example, Christ tells us in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, that if we do not take care of the needs of others, then we will be sent to a place of everlasting fire, reserved for the devil and his angels: Matt 25:41

Christ said that if we don't use all of our talents to use what we have been given and not loaf around, we will be sent to "outer darkness". Mt 25:30

Yet what are we taught in church? Headcoverings. Does your wife wear one? What ever you decide about that issue, it still won't keep you out of the "everlasting fire" or "outer darkness" that Christ predicted. We cannot ignore the doctrines of Christ, and still vigorously uphold the doctrines that other, lesser men have put into our Bibles.

So my challenge to myself, is to keep reading the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and to put these principles of Christ as foremost in my life, and to openly practice them.

It is really simple.

Study the Doctrines of Christ, and when someone brings up a competing doctrine, confront them with the Words of Christ. Don't be silent. Ask them if Christ really is supreme, as He said:

John 13:16 verily, verily, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his lord, nor an apostle greater than he who sent him;

Dispensationalist like Darby have put the Doctrines of Christ in a different "age", and so have made them obsolete, or "dispensed". Darby did this to elevate the doctrines of the men that came after Christ - so that these doctrines should be regarded as superior to Christ. That is one of the most demonic ideas ever introduced to Christianity. How can you be a "Christian" without Christ?

[JohnHurt]

John will not accept your question since you are quoting the Apostle Paul whom he considers to be a heretic. This is where his kind of isolationist mentality will take you. We don't have the authority or the privilege to question God's sovereignty in how he chose to transmit his Word down to us today. It has all taken place through the Divine use of human frailty. It is this very thing that required Jesus to die in the first place. Our pride and arrogance to think that we somehow know better. It is the lie from the Garden of Eden. "Hath God said...?"

George, if you seek to find out if Christ thought that Paul was a heretic, then perhaps a better term would be: "Hath Christ said...?"

Christ said not to eat things sacrificed to Idols: Rev 2:14
The early church said not to eat things sacrificed to idols: Acts 15:29
Paul said it is acceptable to eat meat offered to idols: 1 Cor 8.
That is heresy.

Christ said that no one would see Him until He returns, and only then would everyone see Him:

Matt 24:(23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

(24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

(25) Behold, I have told you before.

(26) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

(27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Where did Paul see Christ? In the desert outside Damascus. Acts 9:3. Where did Ananias see Christ? In his secret chambers. Acts 9:10.

So what did Christ tell us about Paul in Matthew 24? Did Christ predict that people like Paul would claim to have "seen Christ" to promote their heresies? Yes!

So what about Joseph Smith, he claimed to have seen Christ, and YHVH, on a hill in upstate New York? According to Christ in Matthew 24, Joseph Smith is a heretic. What about Oral Roberts, who saw a 90 foot tall Christ that told him to build a multi-million dollar "Prayer Tower" in Oklahoma. Did Oral Roberts actually see a 90' tall Jesus? No, because Christ said so.

So why does this not hold true with Paul? Because Darby and the Dispensationlists have gotten all of us to believe that Paul's doctrines are superior to the Doctrines of Christ.

George, as a friend, I would like you to spend the next 6 months just studying the Doctrines of Christ, the 1st 4 books of the New Testament canon, and ignore all other doctrines. If we do this, we will find peace, enlightenment, and an entirely different view of the Christian religion.

And when we put the doctrines of Christ into practice, say by doing a prison ministry, Matt 25:36, Christ will send His Comforter to guide us to follow Christ's doctrines more completely.

Many blessings to you in your walk with Christ.

John

[Sudsy]

JohnHurt you have some interesting beliefs, some of which I have not run across before. Is there a Christian group or denomination that preaches your beliefs or are these your personal beliefs and convictions only ? I have not run across anyone or group that would view Paul as a heretic, not to say they don't exist.