Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[GaryK]

It also comes across that Israel is the bad guy and Hamas is not doing the horrible things Israel is doing.

Huh? That's certainly not what I am saying. But Israel is responsible when it does horrible things. And I think the conversation is focusing on that because we all agree that Hamas is doing horrible things - we tend not to keep discussing the things we agree on.

Here is the post I was responding to.

Israel is denying 2,000,000 civilians food, water, electricity, medical services, and even the ability to live safely in their own homes. Hamas is not bombing residential neighborhoods in Gaza or cutting off people's cellphone service so they cannot call an ambulance or see if their friends and family are OK when they hear bombs.

That certainly comes across as though Israel is the bad guy here. And then it goes on to compare what Israel is doing in Gaza to what Hamas is not doing in Gaza. How is that a fair comparison? It makes no mention of what precipitated all this happening in Gaza. Who started this current conflict?

[Ken]

In fact, if there were two countries, there might not be a war. Isn't that what Palestinians want?

That just isn’t realistic. They would still be attacked.

Indeed, they were given the opportunity to have a their own country and rejected it because well you know: “…from the River to the Sea…” and all that jazz.

BOTH Israel and the Palestinians are claiming "from the river to the sea" but neither of them wants to accommodate the other's legitimate claims to the land, both as a people, and in terms of individual property rights.

[Bootstrap]

Here is the post I was responding to.

No, it's not. Here's the post that contained that quote. Maybe looking at the entire post will help you see what I was responding to and read it in context. I think it's pretty clear that I am NOT saying what you said I was saying.

Hamas is responsible for the feeding and safekeeping of its own people. They have the necessary supplies to do so but have chosen to use them for war. If there is a group of people terrorizing the Gazans and violating the Geneva Convention it is in fact Hamas.

Both Israel and Hamas are terrorizing these people.

But do the math. There are 30,000 Hamas militants according to some estimates. There are over 2,000,000 civilians. Food for 30,000 soldiers will not feed 2,000,000 civilians. And yes, in any conflict, the 30,000 people with the guns get the food first, the 2,000,000+ civilians suffer. So what does Israel want to accomplish here? Hamas militants will have food. Starving Palestinians and making them watch their children get killed by bombs ... not a great strategy for long-term peace.

Israel is denying 2,000,000 civilians food, water, electricity, medical services, and even the ability to live safely in their own homes. Hamas is not bombing residential neighborhoods in Gaza or cutting off people's cellphone service so they cannot call an ambulance or see if their friends and family are OK when they hear bombs.

Both Hamas and Israel bear guilt for their own actions. This is not moral equivalence - their guilt is not the same. But Israel is killing a lot of civilians. Some with bombs, some with starvation and thirst and closing down medical facilities precisely when they are most needed. Saying Hamas is evil doesn't make this right.

[GaryK]

Here is the post I was responding to.

No, it's not. Here's the post that contained that quote. Maybe looking at the entire post will help you see what I was responding to and read it in context. I think it's pretty clear that I am NOT saying what you said I was saying.

Hamas is responsible for the feeding and safekeeping of its own people. They have the necessary supplies to do so but have chosen to use them for war. If there is a group of people terrorizing the Gazans and violating the Geneva Convention it is in fact Hamas.

Both Israel and Hamas are terrorizing these people.

But do the math. There are 30,000 Hamas militants according to some estimates. There are over 2,000,000 civilians. Food for 30,000 soldiers will not feed 2,000,000 civilians. And yes, in any conflict, the 30,000 people with the guns get the food first, the 2,000,000+ civilians suffer. So what does Israel want to accomplish here? Hamas militants will have food. Starving Palestinians and making them watch their children get killed by bombs ... not a great strategy for long-term peace.

Israel is denying 2,000,000 civilians food, water, electricity, medical services, and even the ability to live safely in their own homes. Hamas is not bombing residential neighborhoods in Gaza or cutting off people's cellphone service so they cannot call an ambulance or see if their friends and family are OK when they hear bombs.

Both Hamas and Israel bear guilt for their own actions. This is not moral equivalence - their guilt is not the same. But Israel is killing a lot of civilians. Some with bombs, some with starvation and thirst and closing down medical facilities precisely when they are most needed. Saying Hamas is evil doesn't make this right.

Okay, looking at the entire post, it seems clear that way more attention is being placed on what Israel is doing wrong than what started this whole conflict in the first place, which was the point I was making all along.

[Ken]

Both Israel and Hamas are terrorizing these people.

But do the math. There are 30,000 Hamas militants according to some estimates. There are over 2,000,000 civilians. Food for 30,000 soldiers will not feed 2,000,000 civilians.

The math works both ways.

There are probably only a few thousand Israeli pilots who are bombing Gaza. But the infrastructure of the state is behind them.

Likewise, there may only be about 30,000 Hamas militants (or soldiers might be more accurate). But the the entire infrastructure of Gaza is behind them. Hamas runs the government, the health ministry, collects taxes, and pays salaries to these Hamas soldiers. It is a quasi-state and the Hamas army of militants is their military wing.

Hamas which is the de facto ruler of Gaza wanted war with Israel. This is what war with Israel looks like.

Activists in Gaza and around the world use all kinds of euphemisms to describe engaging in war with Israel. You see terms like "resistance" and "jihad" thrown about. But they all amount to waging war. And this is what war looks like.

[mike]

Both Israel and Hamas are terrorizing these people.

But do the math. There are 30,000 Hamas militants according to some estimates. There are over 2,000,000 civilians. Food for 30,000 soldiers will not feed 2,000,000 civilians.

The math works both ways.

There are probably only a few thousand Israeli pilots who are bombing Gaza. But the infrastructure of the state is behind them.

Likewise, there may only be about 30,000 Hamas militants (or soldiers might be more accurate). But the the entire infrastructure of Gaza is behind them. Hamas runs the government, the health ministry, collects taxes, and pays salaries to these Hamas soldiers. It is a quasi-state and the Hamas army of militants is their military wing.

Hamas which is the de facto ruler of Gaza wanted war with Israel. This is what war with Israel looks like.

Activists in Gaza and around the world use all kinds of euphemisms to describe engaging in war with Israel. You see terms like "resistance" and "jihad" thrown about. But they all amount to waging war. And this is what war looks like.

Was Hamas democratically elected as the government of Gaza, in free and fair elections?

[Ken]

Both Israel and Hamas are terrorizing these people.

But do the math. There are 30,000 Hamas militants according to some estimates. There are over 2,000,000 civilians. Food for 30,000 soldiers will not feed 2,000,000 civilians.

The math works both ways.

There are probably only a few thousand Israeli pilots who are bombing Gaza. But the infrastructure of the state is behind them.

Likewise, there may only be about 30,000 Hamas militants (or soldiers might be more accurate). But the the entire infrastructure of Gaza is behind them. Hamas runs the government, the health ministry, collects taxes, and pays salaries to these Hamas soldiers. It is a quasi-state and the Hamas army of militants is their military wing.

Hamas which is the de facto ruler of Gaza wanted war with Israel. This is what war with Israel looks like.

Activists in Gaza and around the world use all kinds of euphemisms to describe engaging in war with Israel. You see terms like "resistance" and "jihad" thrown about. But they all amount to waging war. And this is what war looks like.

Was Hamas democratically elected as the government of Gaza, in free and fair elections?

When it comes to war and peace that isn't particularly relevant. Putin wasn't elected in free and fair elections yet Putin led his nation into war in Ukraine. And it is a war that a majority of Russians appear to support.

In fact, when it comes to war and peace, it is most frequently non-democratic nations that plunge themselves into wars of aggression: Nazi Germany, the Japanese Empire in the 1930s, Russia throughout its entire history from the Russian Empire, through the Soviet era, to today. The Confederate States during the US Civil War. And today, pretty much every single war in the middle east: Syria, Yemen, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. etc. None of those governments waging war were democratically elected in free and fair elections.

The fact of the matter is that Hamas is the de facto government of Gaza and according to opinion polls, has the support of a majority of Gazans. Levels of support that are at least equivalent of the levels of support for the Democratic and Republican parties here in the US. And when they chose to wage war against Israel, they took the rest of Gaza with them for better or worse.

None of that excuses the METHODS that Israel is using to wage the war that they found themselves in. But it does explain WHY a state of war exists between Israel and Gaza. It was a war of choice launched by Hamas on 10/7.

[GaryK]

[Bootstrap]

Both Israel and Hamas are terrorizing these people.

But do the math. There are 30,000 Hamas militants according to some estimates. There are over 2,000,000 civilians. Food for 30,000 soldiers will not feed 2,000,000 civilians.

The math works both ways.

There are probably only a few thousand Israeli pilots who are bombing Gaza. But the infrastructure of the state is behind them.

I don't understand what math you are doing here. Yes, there are only a few thousand Israeli pilots (perhaps less?) who are bombing Gaza. But they aren't eating the food that is in Gaza. Are we talking about the same thing?

My math concludes that the food Hamas militants eat is nowhere near enough to feed 2 million+ people. Were you working on the same math problem?

[RZehr]

We are called a nation of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs.

We did not want to harm civilians, but there were complications on the ground, and there was a party in the area.

Riiiight. They didn't want to harm civilians.

Question: Does that mean the annihilation of Israel? Answer: Yes, of course.

This is a wholly different position than Israel's towards them. In spite of the slaughter of innocent Gazans, Israel doesn't have a stated goal of annihilation of Gaza. Apparently it is okay for one side to have a goal of 100% annihilation, while the other side can't even commit 1% annihilation. Strange world we live in. It reminds me of a 3 year old kid, Hamas, doing his best to kill his 25 year old powerful cousin. And the kids parents keep cheering the little kid on.