Sattler College Turmoil

[Josh]

Who I'm guessing doesn't have infinitely deep pockets.

You might be surprised. However, money doesn’t solve everything.

[Ken]

Who I'm guessing doesn't have infinitely deep pockets.

You might be surprised. However, money doesn’t solve everything.

Well, at some point you also might want to stop throwing good money after bad. It isn't like there aren't an infinite number of other worthy philanthropic options for those with deep pockets.

Right now the money seems like it is mostly subsidizing tuition payments and keeping tuition way down below actual cost to the tune of about $35,000 subsidy per student per year. One suspects that Finny will eventually tire of paying for the college educations of a bunch of kids who are not his own, many of whom probably have the resources to pay their own way but wouldn't have chosen Sattler in the first place if expected to do so. That is essentially what he is doing. Writing big college tuition checks for a whole bunch of students that he doesn't have a direct connection to. The money isn't going to build brick and mortar facilities that will last for generations. Is that the best use of one's wealth? Not for me to say I guess.

I'm not a wealthy donor. But I have been involved in charity grantmaking. And a general universal rule is that you like to see projects on a trajectory to be self-sustaining.

[Judas Maccabeus]

....
Some distinctives (compared to other Anabaptists are):

- Full immersionism (some Anabaptists share this)
- Baptismal regeneration (some Anabaptists share this)
- Weekly communion
- A belief there should be 1 church in a given geographic area, instead of multiple “churches of Christ” or “kingdom churches” or whatever they are called

If this sounds like Stoney-Campbell distinctives, you’re right: they are.

....

I'm possibly the only one, but not familiar with Stoney-Campebell". I did a search on Google, but it just came up with people by that name (first & last).

Is it in any way connected with or derived from "The Local Church" movement back in the 70's? (I had friends who were involved in it, and the one in Chicago definitely sounded heretical to me, because they rejected the deity of both the Father and the Son - because "They have bodies".)

What you seem to be describing is the “Local Church “ of Witness Lee.

It actually has Plymouth Brethren roots, but way back in China. It has some connections to the early Keswick Convention movement. IIRC you attended a college with such roots.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Following all of this from afar with no more interest than idle curiosity I have come to the conclusion that this project is probably doomed to fail.

First of all, higher education is one of the most difficult things to be in these days, especially private higher education. Small colleges are collapsing and failing all across the country because the economics of private higher education just don't pencil out, even if you have all the advantages of 100 years of infrastructure, history, endowments, and alumni and a large church behind you. Here in the Portland area we have seen historic Catholic and Lutheran colleges collapse and close in the past few years that had FAR more history, infrastructure and resources than Sattler:

Concordia University (Lutheran): https://www.opb.org/news/article/concor ... uri-synod/
Maryhurst University (Catholic): https://www.opb.org/news/article/marylh ... se-oregon/

I have a friend who works in the administration of a public university and he says that their break-even point is about 75 students per class. Anything less than that and they are running in deficit. Small seminar classes with 10-20 students? Completely unsustainable. And that is for public universities that get state subsidies. It would be worse for private universities that receive no such subsidies. And it is worse for STEM areas that require lots of technology and infrastructure and labs. A mechanical engineering class or organic chemistry class might be 4-times more expensive to run than a foreign language, history, or literature class.

At Sattler, like other small private colleges, at some point the money is going to run out and then poof, it will all be gone. Sattler doesn't have a deep alumni network to fundraise from like older historic colleges, and doesn't have a large denomination behind it to do the same. It seems to be mostly just one guy. Who I'm guessing doesn't have infinitely deep pockets. Goshen College, for example, has an endowment of about $150 million that was raised through over a century of fundraising, legacies left by deceased alumni, etc. And even that only goes so far. The typical safe withdrawal rate for a college endowment is about 4% so that $150 million endowment is only kicking out about $6 million per year. And that is for a school with an annual budget of about $40 million if I'm reading the reports correctly. So there is a whole lot of money to make up with tuition payments and grants just to break even.

Secondly, all religious institutions are caught between a rock and hard place when it comes to finding their place on the conservative/liberal scale. You definitely see it in other more mainstream Anabaptist colleges like Goshen, EMU, Heston, Bethel, etc. No matter where the school comes down there are more conservative parents who pull out because the school is not conservative enough, and more liberal parents and students who pull out because it is not liberal enough. This still happened generations ago. Goshen actually closed for a year in the 1920s over this sort of battle. But I think it has gotten worse in recent decades as denominations have become more polarized. More and more religious schools are evolving into what are really more regional schools. For example, I think Goshen now has a minority of students from Anabaptist roots and is becoming more of just a small regional private college. It has no other choice really.

Thirdly, I think a conservative Anabaptist college in a big city with zero Anabaptist roots or heritage is an especially ill-conceived idea. Conservative Anabaptists very much trend rural not urban. And are also more tied to place and family than perhaps your typical middle class suburbanite. So a new college in Lancaster County or rural Ohio or someplace like that would have made more sense on a whole lot of levels. There is a market for politically conservative religious education. That is the sort of thing that places like Liberty University are doing. But I don't think the same sort of market exists for Conservative Anabaptist higher education in some distant non-Anabaptist big city. People have a LOT of choices when it comes to higher education and the actual yield rate for most small colleges is in more like the 10% range. So if a college wants a freshman class of say 100 students they may have to recruit and offer admission to over 1000. Because most students apply to multiple colleges but decide to attend only one. Or to not attend at all. So you have to cast a really big net to keep a college running. The math is probably less brutal for a very niche school like Sattler, but it is still there at some level.

Finally a small college founded by a small religious group that seems to have almost zero college age students of its own seems even more ill-considered. From what little I know of FOTW congregations, they are mostly younger homeschooling type families who don't, in fact, have college age students of their own to send to college. You can, of course, make it a very ecumenical sort of place which many religious colleges are doing. But that doesn't seem to be at all what Sattler is doing.

I'm happy to be proven wrong. I think more diversity of options in higher education is a good thing. And I'm just one guy with an opinion on the internet that is worth exactly what you paid for it. But those are my thoughts as someone who's third daughter is right in the middle of this process as we speak. And who teaches a lot of HS students who are going through the same college selection process as well.

For the record, Nyack College also just closed, 100+ years as the C & MA flagship college. Washington Bible College/Capitol Bible Seminary closed a number of years ago. I attended CBS,

[Judas Maccabeus]

....
Some distinctives (compared to other Anabaptists are):

- Full immersionism (some Anabaptists share this)
- Baptismal regeneration (some Anabaptists share this)
- Weekly communion
- A belief there should be 1 church in a given geographic area, instead of multiple “churches of Christ” or “kingdom churches” or whatever they are called

If this sounds like Stoney-Campbell distinctives, you’re right: they are.

....

I'm possibly the only one, but not familiar with Stoney-Campebell". I did a search on Google, but it just came up with people by that name (first & last).

Is it in any way connected with or derived from "The Local Church" movement back in the 70's? (I had friends who were involved in it, and the one in Chicago definitely sounded heretical to me, because they rejected the deity of both the Father and the Son - because "They have bodies".)

Try "Stone-Campbell".

You could try “Restoration Movement “ as well.

[Neto]

....
Some distinctives (compared to other Anabaptists are):

- Full immersionism (some Anabaptists share this)
- Baptismal regeneration (some Anabaptists share this)
- Weekly communion
- A belief there should be 1 church in a given geographic area, instead of multiple “churches of Christ” or “kingdom churches” or whatever they are called

If this sounds like Stoney-Campbell distinctives, you’re right: they are.

....

I'm possibly the only one, but not familiar with Stoney-Campebell". I did a search on Google, but it just came up with people by that name (first & last).

Is it in any way connected with or derived from "The Local Church" movement back in the 70's? (I had friends who were involved in it, and the one in Chicago definitely sounded heretical to me, because they rejected the deity of both the Father and the Son - because "They have bodies".)

What you seem to be describing is the “Local Church “ of Witness Lee.

It actually has Plymouth Brethren roots, but way back in China. It has some connections to the early Keswick Convention movement. IIRC you attended a college with such roots.

Yes, that's their main teacher. (He was a student of Watchman Nee, but many would say that he didn't "follow" him very well. I have read some of Watchman Nee's books - not all of them by any means, and have found them helpful. Some of us actually call Witness Lee "Witless Lee".... Not very nice, really.)
The Bible college from which I graduated was St Paul Bible College, now Crown College - Christian & Missionary Alliance. My parents had attended a C&MA church while living in South Texas, and my Dad's cousin attended St Paul Bible Institute (later SPBC) and married an Alliance girl from St. Paul. I don't know a great deal about the C&MA, so I don't know if it had ties to the Keswick Convention Movement (of which I don't think I've ever heard before). I was probably influenced in some ways by the teaching there, but it was there that I continued to grapple with my Mennonite heritage, and there that I became fully pacifistic, and then progressively what people here call "non-resistant".

(By the way, I had to look up 'IIRC'. I generally just ignore 'codes' like that, but this was too central, and nothing in the context told me what it might mean.)

[I also see that Jude Mac says that Nyack closed - didn't know that.

[Josh]

Alliance (fka Nyack) just closed two months ago. The financial condition was just too rough.

[Ernie]

FYI,

I received a somewhat lengthy email from one of the founders of FOTW this week with whom I have had some ongoing verbal and written dialogue from July of 2022 to February of 2023. In February I had asked him whether I could make our email dialogue public and he requested that I not do so. (My questions were about more practical ecclesiastical considerations, not theological doctrines as have been discussed recently in this thread.) I encouraged him to write a public document that addresses the issues I raised questions about.

The content of the email that I received this week used very strong language and was quite the opposite of complimentary. I don't think all emails need to be complimentary, but this one seemed... well... over the top. The manner in which I was addressed had many of the same trademarks that I have heard from people from his church who have questioned his perspectives and decisions.

Among other things in the email, he stated that he wants no further conversation with me on any matters. The only thing that could persuade him that my interest is not to defame FOTW, is to take down what I've written in this thread.
I replied letting him know that I am willing to post anything that he thinks is not correct about what I wrote, just as I did a year ago.
I told him that he can let me know if anything changes regarding his stance toward me. I am willing to continue communicating with him and I told him that I think there are still things of value that I can learn from him.

The reason I have been posting publicly about FOTW/Sattler is because I have former students and friends who were quite damaged by their experience in Boston. (Their experience in Boston was not only negative. They did learn some valuable things while they were there. But it can be really hard to sort things out whenever you feel deeply betrayed by people you trusted.) Some people are able to recover from the damage, learn what they can, and move on with their lives. Others can be negatively impacted for years, decades, or even the rest of their lives. I want to spare people from this as much as I can.

If an individual, or church or organization is going to publicly make disparaging comments about other people and churches, take members from other churches without conversing with those churches, and not treat their own members counsel with respect and dignity, then it seems a public address is in order.

I'm always glad to give individuals, organizations, and churches the opportunity to change course and become a blessing to those they interact with.
I am hoping and praying this will be the case for the church in Boston.

NOTE: The original post indicated that FOTW was not getting outside help to walk a path of repentance and restoration. FOTW has sought/is seeking outside help regarding conflicts that have taken place in Boston.

MODERATOR - EDITED 9/11 at poster's request.

[NedFlanders]

What I've seen in the Mennonites I know is a desire for Sattler to be a blessing in building the kingdom of God. And even if that blessing isn't reciprocated, I see in the CA's I know a heart like in the previous post in still wanting the best for others.

[Ernie]

FYI, I am informed that FOTW is engaging outside help. My earlier statement conveyed the idea that they are not doing any of this, so I am acknowledging here that they have made some attempts.