Sattler College Turmoil

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
jahertz

Re: Sattler College Turmoil

Post by jahertz »

jahertz wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 11:25 pm
ken_sylvania wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2023 10:55 pm But you did claim that Ernie said Dean never intended to start an Anabaptist church. And you said that if Ernie's statement is true, then the claim that Finny opposed an Anabaptist church starting in Boston is a false accusation. Ernie stated that Finny opposed the Kingdom Christian type church that Dean was working toward organizing.

Ernie made both statements, and you said that if the one is true then the other is false. How is this not an accusation that Ernie made either a false statement or a false accusation?
If I'm understanding your argument here, it depends on treating "Kingdom Christian" and "Anabaptist" as synonyms, or at least nested categories.

I don't use "Kingdom Christian" and Anabaptist as synonyms but as distinct categories that partly overlap.

If brothereicher and Ernie are using those terms in roughly the same way I do—and it seems to me they are—then as brothereicher said, Ernie has not contradicted himself. He has merely refuted the popular rumor that it was an Anabaptist church which Finny opposed in Boston.
Reviewing the earlier discussion, I see that brothereicher appeared to take Ernie's use of Mennonite as a synonym for Anabaptist. In my mind those two are not synonyms either. So maybe he misinterpreted Ernie's meaning there.

Regardless of what Ernie meant in that statement, it doesn't contradict what he said later, and brothereicher is not accusing him of a contradiction. With all the other truly difficult matter this discussion involves, why insist on cramming an accusation into someone's mouth that he is denying?
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Ernie

Re: Sattler College Turmoil

Post by Ernie »

It's hard for me to follow all the contradictions about the contradictions. :-)

At this point, I think everybody understands what I said. So, from my standpoint, I am not feeling accused.

And yes, there are different meanings for the terms Mennonite, Anabaptist, kingdom Christian, and Anabaptist kingdom Christian.
And yes, there is overlap between some of the terms.
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Judas Maccabeus

Re: Sattler College Turmoil

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

jahertz wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 1:08 pm
I've personally shared Eucharist as a visitor in a FOTW congregation in Boston. All things considered, if they really are crypto One True Churchers as alleged here, it's difficult to imagine a sloppier application of the doctrine than theirs.
The term "Eucharist" is not generally used in any Mennonite/Brethern circles in which I have been in. IIRC it implies some sort of "presence" of the Lord in the elements. That is rejected in all conservative Mennonite groups that I have been around. Is this your view/FOTW's view, as far as you are aware? It may account for some who have been "non invited" that I am aware of.
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jahertz

Re: Sattler College Turmoil

Post by jahertz »

Judas Maccabeus wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:10 am
jahertz wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 1:08 pm
I've personally shared Eucharist as a visitor in a FOTW congregation in Boston. All things considered, if they really are crypto One True Churchers as alleged here, it's difficult to imagine a sloppier application of the doctrine than theirs.
The term "Eucharist" is not generally used in any Mennonite/Brethern circles in which I have been in. IIRC it implies some sort of "presence" of the Lord in the elements. That is rejected in all conservative Mennonite groups that I have been around. Is this your view/FOTW's view, as far as you are aware? It may account for some who have been "non invited" that I am aware of.
Pardon my incredulity, but I'm genuinely baffled at how a person who has been posing here as an authority on FOTW due to having been to Boston 4X somehow managed to avoid ever learning about the single FOTW belief that's been causing the most offense to Plain people for years.

Yes, they believe in the Real Presence. Yes, they have that belief on public record all over the place. It's been brought up earlier in this very thread and in who knows how many other places on this forum.

And yes, I agree with your suggestion that this makes it hard to honestly classify FOTW as a Mennonite/Anabaptist church. FOTW leadership have been trying to point this out for years in the face of persistent Anabaptist attempts to claim them as an Anabaptist subgroup.

If I had a quarter for every Plain Person I've seen demanding that FOTW members admit to being Anabaptist, only to cry foul and accuse FOTW of a bait and switch when they learned later that FOTW is in fact not Anabaptist — I might not be as wealthy as Finny, but let's just say the gap would be smaller.
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Judas Maccabeus

Re: Sattler College Turmoil

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

jahertz wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:55 am
Judas Maccabeus wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:10 am
jahertz wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 1:08 pm
I've personally shared Eucharist as a visitor in a FOTW congregation in Boston. All things considered, if they really are crypto One True Churchers as alleged here, it's difficult to imagine a sloppier application of the doctrine than theirs.
The term "Eucharist" is not generally used in any Mennonite/Brethern circles in which I have been in. IIRC it implies some sort of "presence" of the Lord in the elements. That is rejected in all conservative Mennonite groups that I have been around. Is this your view/FOTW's view, as far as you are aware? It may account for some who have been "non invited" that I am aware of.
Pardon my incredulity, but I'm genuinely baffled at how a person who has been posing here as an authority on FOTW due to having been to Boston 4X somehow managed to avoid ever learning about the single FOTW belief that's been causing the most offense to Plain people for years.

Yes, they believe in the Real Presence. Yes, they have that belief on public record all over the place. It's been brought up earlier in this very thread and in who knows how many other places on this forum.

And yes, I agree with your suggestion that this makes it hard to honestly classify FOTW as a Mennonite/Anabaptist church. FOTW leadership have been trying to point this out for years in the face of persistent Anabaptist attempts to claim them as an Anabaptist subgroup.

If I had a quarter for every Plain Person I've seen demanding that FOTW members admit to being Anabaptist, only to cry foul and accuse FOTW of a bait and switch when they learned later that FOTW is in fact not Anabaptist — I might not be as wealthy as Finny, but let's just say the gap would be smaller.
Did miss that. I have been focusing on the baptism issue. Most of my searches reflect that, as it has been a particular interest of mi e. My interest is largely our doctrinal position on that, FOTW provides an interesting case study. Oh well, more to write about here.
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Josh

Re: Sattler College Turmoil

Post by Josh »

Sociologically, they are an Anabaptist group that has somewhat divergent beliefs on baptism and communion. The same is true of other Anabaptist groups; GBs have divergent views on baptism and slightly unique communion; Holdemans have divergent views on baptism, and so on. Such disputes and divisions have been part of Anabaptism since the start.

Some groups proclaim they are not Mennonites (most Charity type groups did this) and others claim to just be a “Christian church” etc. (Holdemans used to do this), but self-identifying does not actually make something so.

The facts on the ground are that FotW holds to the basics that historians, theologians, and sociologists consider what define plain Anabaptism, and the majority of their followers of their way are indeed from plain Anabaptist backgrounds (another defining characteristic of plain Anabaptism is the heavy ethnic component; if one strolls into an FotW service, one is impressed that many people there have parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents that were indeed ethnic Anabaptists).

I do not see how Mr Kuravilla’s conduct towards Taylor or Weaver is defensible. The facts are:

#1. Taylor desired to help start a “kingdom Christian” church with weekly communion.

#2. Kuravilla refused to bless this, and then indeed started to oppose it.

#3. Much quibbling has since taken place about nuances of terms like “Mennonite”, “Anabaptist”, and “kingdom Christian”.

The reality is that those things are quite closely related and quibbling by claiming that “Kuravilla never forbid starting a Mennonite church!” is not really the truth of the matter. The truth is that he did indeed seem to claim a territorial jurisdiction over starting any “kingdom churches” in Boston.
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Josh

Re: Sattler College Turmoil

Post by Josh »

Judas Maccabeus wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 11:13 am Did miss that. I have been focusing on the baptism issue. Most of my searches reflect that, as it has been a particular interest of mi e. My interest is largely our doctrinal position on that, FOTW provides an interesting case study. Oh well, more to write about here.
Some distinctives (compared to other Anabaptists are):

- Full immersionism (some Anabaptists share this)
- Baptismal regeneration (some Anabaptists share this)
- Weekly communion
- A belief there should be 1 church in a given geographic area, instead of multiple “churches of Christ” or “kingdom churches” or whatever they are called

If this sounds like Stoney-Campbell distinctives, you’re right: they are.

Some additional distinctives;

- Belief on the “real presence” but not quite the Roman Catholic position of transsubstantiation
- Belief in having a members’ meeting every week that is secret / closed to non-members, typically before a Sunday service but sometimes after.

If these sound like EO beliefs, you’re right about that too.

I do not think FotW was necessarily deceitful about being the above beliefs other than baptism regeneration. They seem to be less forthcoming about what they actually believe the salvation status of those of us who haven’t been fully immersed and attended weekly communion are.
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Neto

Re: Sattler College Turmoil

Post by Neto »

Josh wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 11:19 am ....
Some distinctives (compared to other Anabaptists are):

- Full immersionism (some Anabaptists share this)
- Baptismal regeneration (some Anabaptists share this)
- Weekly communion
- A belief there should be 1 church in a given geographic area, instead of multiple “churches of Christ” or “kingdom churches” or whatever they are called

If this sounds like Stoney-Campbell distinctives, you’re right: they are.

....
I'm possibly the only one, but not familiar with Stoney-Campebell". I did a search on Google, but it just came up with people by that name (first & last).

Is it in any way connected with or derived from "The Local Church" movement back in the 70's? (I had friends who were involved in it, and the one in Chicago definitely sounded heretical to me, because they rejected the deity of both the Father and the Son - because "They have bodies".)
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ken_sylvania

Re: Sattler College Turmoil

Post by ken_sylvania »

Neto wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 12:37 pm
Josh wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 11:19 am ....
Some distinctives (compared to other Anabaptists are):

- Full immersionism (some Anabaptists share this)
- Baptismal regeneration (some Anabaptists share this)
- Weekly communion
- A belief there should be 1 church in a given geographic area, instead of multiple “churches of Christ” or “kingdom churches” or whatever they are called

If this sounds like Stoney-Campbell distinctives, you’re right: they are.

....
I'm possibly the only one, but not familiar with Stoney-Campebell". I did a search on Google, but it just came up with people by that name (first & last).

Is it in any way connected with or derived from "The Local Church" movement back in the 70's? (I had friends who were involved in it, and the one in Chicago definitely sounded heretical to me, because they rejected the deity of both the Father and the Son - because "They have bodies".)
Try "Stone-Campbell".
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Ken
Posts: 18074
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Sattler College Turmoil

Post by Ken »

Following all of this from afar with no more interest than idle curiosity I have come to the conclusion that this project is probably doomed to fail.

First of all, higher education is one of the most difficult things to be in these days, especially private higher education. Small colleges are collapsing and failing all across the country because the economics of private higher education just don't pencil out, even if you have all the advantages of 100 years of infrastructure, history, endowments, and alumni and a large church behind you. Here in the Portland area we have seen historic Catholic and Lutheran colleges collapse and close in the past few years that had FAR more history, infrastructure and resources than Sattler:

Concordia University (Lutheran): https://www.opb.org/news/article/concor ... uri-synod/
Maryhurst University (Catholic): https://www.opb.org/news/article/marylh ... se-oregon/

I have a friend who works in the administration of a public university and he says that their break-even point is about 75 students per class. Anything less than that and they are running in deficit. Small seminar classes with 10-20 students? Completely unsustainable. And that is for public universities that get state subsidies. It would be worse for private universities that receive no such subsidies. And it is worse for STEM areas that require lots of technology and infrastructure and labs. A mechanical engineering class or organic chemistry class might be 4-times more expensive to run than a foreign language, history, or literature class.

At Sattler, like other small private colleges, at some point the money is going to run out and then poof, it will all be gone. Sattler doesn't have a deep alumni network to fundraise from like older historic colleges, and doesn't have a large denomination behind it to do the same. It seems to be mostly just one guy. Who I'm guessing doesn't have infinitely deep pockets. Goshen College, for example, has an endowment of about $150 million that was raised through over a century of fundraising, legacies left by deceased alumni, etc. And even that only goes so far. The typical safe withdrawal rate for a college endowment is about 4% so that $150 million endowment is only kicking out about $6 million per year. And that is for a school with an annual budget of about $40 million if I'm reading the reports correctly. So there is a whole lot of money to make up with tuition payments and grants just to break even.

Secondly, all religious institutions are caught between a rock and hard place when it comes to finding their place on the conservative/liberal scale. You definitely see it in other more mainstream Anabaptist colleges like Goshen, EMU, Heston, Bethel, etc. No matter where the school comes down there are more conservative parents who pull out because the school is not conservative enough, and more liberal parents and students who pull out because it is not liberal enough. This still happened generations ago. Goshen actually closed for a year in the 1920s over this sort of battle. But I think it has gotten worse in recent decades as denominations have become more polarized. More and more religious schools are evolving into what are really more regional schools. For example, I think Goshen now has a minority of students from Anabaptist roots and is becoming more of just a small regional private college. It has no other choice really.

Thirdly, I think a conservative Anabaptist college in a big city with zero Anabaptist roots or heritage is an especially ill-conceived idea. Conservative Anabaptists very much trend rural not urban. And are also more tied to place and family than perhaps your typical middle class suburbanite. So a new college in Lancaster County or rural Ohio or someplace like that would have made more sense on a whole lot of levels. There is a market for politically conservative religious education. That is the sort of thing that places like Liberty University are doing. But I don't think the same sort of market exists for Conservative Anabaptist higher education in some distant non-Anabaptist big city. People have a LOT of choices when it comes to higher education and the actual yield rate for most small colleges is in more like the 10% range. So if a college wants a freshman class of say 100 students they may have to recruit and offer admission to over 1000. Because most students apply to multiple colleges but decide to attend only one. Or to not attend at all. So you have to cast a really big net to keep a college running. The math is probably less brutal for a very niche school like Sattler, but it is still there at some level.

Finally a small college founded by a small religious group that seems to have almost zero college age students of its own seems even more ill-considered. From what little I know of FOTW congregations, they are mostly younger homeschooling type families who don't, in fact, have college age students of their own to send to college. You can, of course, make it a very ecumenical sort of place which many religious colleges are doing. But that doesn't seem to be at all what Sattler is doing.

I'm happy to be proven wrong. I think more diversity of options in higher education is a good thing. And I'm just one guy with an opinion on the internet that is worth exactly what you paid for it. But those are my thoughts as someone who's third daughter is right in the middle of this process as we speak. And who teaches a lot of HS students who are going through the same college selection process as well.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
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