How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Neto

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Neto »

cooper wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 8:28 pm
Marylander wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 7:51 pm It's also curious to me why plain dressing Mennonites are opposed to higher education but aren't opposed to mission work when the latter was equally detrimental to the Mennonite church.
Conservative Anabaptism has a cultural heritage that is really valuable and has deep flaws. It's hard to have one without the other. The Achille's heel of conservative Anabaptism is that it can't withstand sustained contact with people in the outside world. Inviting insiders into the church is an essential part of Christianity. This puts conservative Anabaptists in a double bind.
I would suggest that it is not conservative anabaptism that is "harmed" by either education or by mission work, but rather it is the old cultural traditions that are "harmed". At least my own experience does not line up with this idea, which is often suggested or stated on this forum - that these involvements make a person less "conservative". I didn't go on for a masters, but I have a BA, some graduate course work, and I was involved in missionary work for 18 years, and among non-Mennonites to boot. Maybe it's because I didn't grow up in what people here call 'conservative anabaptism', but actually came into it AFTER all of the education I mentioned, and continued in it throughout my missionary involvement. (It was actually the pursuit of higher education that led me to traditional anabaptism - in the sense of belief & faith practice, not in the cultural sense.)

It would be helpful for me in understanding what is being discussed in this topic if the cultural aspect was separated from the 'anabaptism'. But after 40 years of contact with the conservative Swiss Brethren culture, I realize that these two things are hopelessly intertwined. It seems that any member of that culture that attempts to separate the two is merely written off as a "liberal", or at best as a "progressive", which is also a 'dirty word'. I suppose this is why missionary work is considered 'harmful' - because doing good mission work requires cultural knowledge, the ability to stand back & evaluate one's own culture in light of the differences between it and the other cultures with which one comes into contact. I also think that this "seeing one's self" can lead to the strengthening of one's faith, and the determination to live it out.
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Josh

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Josh »

cooper wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 8:28 pm
Marylander wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 7:51 pm It's also curious to me why plain dressing Mennonites are opposed to higher education but aren't opposed to mission work when the latter was equally detrimental to the Mennonite church.
Conservative Anabaptism has a cultural heritage that is really valuable and has deep flaws. It's hard to have one without the other. The Achille's heel of conservative Anabaptism is that it can't withstand sustained contact with people in the outside world. Inviting insiders into the church is an essential part of Christianity. This puts conservative Anabaptists in a double bind.
My church has plenty of outsiders who have joined it. We also have plenty of missionary activity. On the flip side, we have a strong stance against higher education.

There is no reason to send your young people to be immersed in an antichrist, anti-church, and immoral environment.
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Bootstrap

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Bootstrap »

Tell me about spiritual renewal in plain Anabaptist settings.

What does it look like? Do people go through "transitions" when it occurs, changing in other ways, or do they stay within the specific setting they started in? Do their traditions change? Or is it more likely to be a doubling down on what they were doing before?

Can someone give examples from the last 30 years?
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Josh

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Josh »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 12:20 pm Tell me about spiritual renewal in plain Anabaptist settings.
We could discuss that but it has nothing to do with “transitional Anabaptist churches”, which might or might be associated with spiritual renewal.
What does it look like? Do people go through "transitions" when it occurs, changing in other ways, or do they stay within the specific setting they started in? Do their traditions change? Or is it more likely to be a doubling down on what they were doing before?

Can someone give examples from the last 30 years?
One of the best examples is the Sleeping Preacher Amish.

Another example are the “interviews” or “panels” from the Holdemans in the 1970s.
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Bootstrap

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 12:31 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 12:20 pm Tell me about spiritual renewal in plain Anabaptist settings.
We could discuss that but it has nothing to do with “transitional Anabaptist churches”, which might or might be associated with spiritual renewal.
Did you mean to say "might or might not"? Because that was my question. Are there good transitions as well as bad ones?
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Sudsy

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Sudsy »

How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?
Attend a Pentecostal church that doesn't have a whole bunch of extra-biblical rules to follow for fellowship. :)
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Soloist

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Soloist »

The stories I know are relatively meaningless. The people though… They stayed after a time of rebellion and prospered spirituality when they repented.
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Josh

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Josh »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 12:37 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 12:31 pm
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 12:20 pm Tell me about spiritual renewal in plain Anabaptist settings.
We could discuss that but it has nothing to do with “transitional Anabaptist churches”, which might or might be associated with spiritual renewal.
Did you mean to say "might or might not"? Because that was my question. Are there good transitions as well as bad ones?
Yea, I did. Oops..
We aren’t talking about “transitions”. We could make a different thread to talk about that. Every church in my view undergoes transitions of some type of another.

We are talking about a specific phenomenon some academics call the “Anabaptist escalator”. I like Ernie’s term of “transitional Anabaptist churches”. They function to help make it easier for more conservative plain people to transition to a less conservative, less plain life, whilst simultaneously claiming to uphold conservative, plain Anabaptism.

It is a phenomenon unique to Anabaptists that is worth discussing. It has almost nothing to do with spiritual renewal; a person who transitions from the Tobe Amish to Old Order Amish probably isn’t seeking spiritual renewal.

Likewise, a person who goes from Groffdale -> Weaverland probably isn’t seeking spiritual renewal. (Their doctrinal views are about the same, and from what I hear Groffdales generally have more spiritually minded preachers.)
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Josh

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Josh »

Sudsy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 12:38 pm
How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?
Attend a Pentecostal church that doesn't have a whole bunch of extra-biblical rules to follow for fellowship. :)
Many Anabaptists do eventually transition to a Pentecostal church, although they rarely stay. I went to youth group with a few youth who did that step at one point.

The problem, Sudsy, is the “outflow” step. Eventually such a type of person leaves the Pentecostal church they are in for a less strict one; in the example I am thinking of, they wanted to cohabit yet still feel like a Christian so they ended up leaving the Pentecostal type of megachurch environment they had been for a year or so.
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Bootstrap

Re: How could transitional Anabaptists stop being that way?

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 3:48 pm It is a phenomenon unique to Anabaptists that is worth discussing. It has almost nothing to do with spiritual renewal; a person who transitions from the Tobe Amish to Old Order Amish probably isn’t seeking spiritual renewal.

Likewise, a person who goes from Groffdale -> Weaverland probably isn’t seeking spiritual renewal. (Their doctrinal views are about the same, and from what I hear Groffdales generally have more spiritually minded preachers.)
What are they seeking?
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