The 7 Churches-

[Valerie]

Years ago our beloved Lester b tried to start a discussion on the seven churches in Revelation. It didn't seem to get very much interest.

Lately we've had discussions on what Jesus said during his earthly ministry. In light of how we are in the world today I thought it might be beneficial with our recent discussions to see how he addressed the seven churches in Revelation to where we can perhaps glean from what he admonished them for and what he said they were doing correctly.

Revelation 2- NKJV

2 “To the Church of Ephesus write,

‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: 2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot ]bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’

[Valerie]

Now i know how Lesterb felt when he tried to start this topic of the letters to the 7 Churches-
For myself, I find it beneficial to periodically study Revelation 2 & 3 as reminders and teaching safeguards as to what areas our churches need to be careful, or what Jesus was pleased with- we know the Gospels were Jesus primarily speaking to the Jews, the Church of the New Covenant had not began yet-

[Soloist]

What do you think the deeds of the Nicolaitans were?

[Bootstrap]

Lately we've had discussions on what Jesus said during his earthly ministry. In light of how we are in the world today I thought it might be beneficial with our recent discussions to see how he addressed the seven churches in Revelation to where we can perhaps glean from what he admonished them for and what he said they were doing correctly.

Revelation 2- NKJV

2 “To the Church of Ephesus write,

‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: 2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot ]bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’

Good thread.

According to this verse, the following is not enough:

• Good works
• Labor
• Patience and perseverence
• Not making room for those who are evil
• Exposing false apostles
• Laboring for the name of Jesus
• Hating the deeds of the Nicolaitians

You can do all of those things and fall short, just as the Ephesians did. John is calling them to repent, and they will lose their place if they do not. Even if they keep appealing to these things as proof of their faithfulness.

They need to return to their first love. Love of God, love of neighbor - the first and second commandments. Love of the brethren is surely a big part of this. If our zeal does not look like love, we need to remember where we have fallen from.

I like the word "devoted", I think it summarizes much of what is at the heart of true Christianity. We are devoted to God, devoted to the brethren, devoted to loving and serving our neighbors, devoted to the ministry of reconciliation that God has given us. And if we fail to do that, God may remove our lampstand from its place.

[Sudsy]

Lately we've had discussions on what Jesus said during his earthly ministry. In light of how we are in the world today I thought it might be beneficial with our recent discussions to see how he addressed the seven churches in Revelation to where we can perhaps glean from what he admonished them for and what he said they were doing correctly.

Revelation 2- NKJV

2 “To the Church of Ephesus write,

‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: 2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot ]bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’

Good thread.

According to this verse, the following is not enough:

• Good works
• Labor
• Patience and perseverence
• Not making room for those who are evil
• Exposing false apostles
• Laboring for the name of Jesus
• Hating the deeds of the Nicolaitians

You can do all of those things and fall short, just as the Ephesians did. John is calling them to repent, and they will lose their place if they do not. Even if they keep appealing to these things as proof of their faithfulness.

They need to return to their first love. Love of God, love of neighbor - the first and second commandments. Love of the brethren is surely a big part of this. If our zeal does not look like love, we need to remember where we have fallen from.

I like the word "devoted", I think it summarizes much of what is at the heart of true Christianity. We are devoted to God, devoted to the brethren, devoted to loving and serving our neighbors, devoted to the ministry of reconciliation that God has given us. And if we fail to do that, God may remove our lampstand from its place.

Bootstrap, what is your understanding of the lampstand being talked about here and how do you think God removes it and we know it has been removed ?

[Bootstrap]

Bootstrap, what is your understanding of the lampstand being talked about here and how do you think God removes it and we know it has been removed?

Lets start with Revelation 1:20:

The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

So the stars represent the angels or messengers of the seven churches, and the lampstands represent the seven churches themselves.

Lampstands represent the church's role in shining the light of Christ in the world, spreading the Gospel, and being a witness to the truth. It rhymes with this part of Matthew 5:

You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead, they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

If that lampstand is removed, the church is no longer a light to the world, it loses its mission and its witness and its position in the eyes of God. I don't know exactly how far those consequences reach, but it's clearly not good, and it's clearly serious.

[Bootstrap]

What do you think the deeds of the Nicolaitans were?

There's some speculation, but I don't think we actually know. Revelation 2:6 and 2:15 are the two places they are mentioned. Whatever they were doing, God hated their deeds. The Church of Ephesus knew what God was talking about, I don't.

[Sudsy]

Bootstrap, what is your understanding of the lampstand being talked about here and how do you think God removes it and we know it has been removed?

Lets start with Revelation 1:20:

The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

So the stars represent the angels or messengers of the seven churches, and the lampstands represent the seven churches themselves.

Lampstands represent the church's role in shining the light of Christ in the world, spreading the Gospel, and being a witness to the truth. It rhymes with this part of Matthew 5:

You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead, they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

If that lampstand is removed, the church is no longer a light to the world, it loses its mission and its witness and its position in the eyes of God. I don't know exactly how far those consequences reach, but it's clearly not good, and it's clearly serious.

Thankyou. So a local church can lose it's mission to the world in demonstrating the light of Christ and sharing the Gospel and how do we know this has happened ? The text says our light is shone through good deeds in a way that causes others to 'glorify your Father in heaven'.

Benson commentary reads -

That is, that seeing your good works they may both praise God for sending such a religion into the world, and also, embracing your faith, may imitate your holy example, or may be moved to love and serve God as you do, and thereby to glorify him.

There are various Christian groups that do good deeds but they do not appear to be of the quality and/or quantity that causes people to turn to Christ. It could be that these good deeds are done in a way that only brings recognition to themselves as was the case with the Pharisees in Jesus day who wanted the personal recognition of men.

I did some good works this morning by delivering meals to people through a community services program but I believe any glory for this would not be the kind of good deeds that bring people to salvation. God is glorified when we produce the fruit of good works that draws people to Christ. Yes/No ?

[Valerie]

Lately we've had discussions on what Jesus said during his earthly ministry. In light of how we are in the world today I thought it might be beneficial with our recent discussions to see how he addressed the seven churches in Revelation to where we can perhaps glean from what he admonished them for and what he said they were doing correctly.

Revelation 2- NKJV

2 “To the Church of Ephesus write,

‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: 2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot ]bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’

Good thread.

According to this verse, the following is not enough:

• Good works
• Labor
• Patience and perseverence
• Not making room for those who are evil
• Exposing false apostles
• Laboring for the name of Jesus
• Hating the deeds of the Nicolaitians

You can do all of those things and fall short, just as the Ephesians did. John is calling them to repent, and they will lose their place if they do not. Even if they keep appealing to these things as proof of their faithfulness.

They need to return to their first love. Love of God, love of neighbor - the first and second commandments. Love of the brethren is surely a big part of this. If our zeal does not look like love, we need to remember where we have fallen from.

I like the word "devoted", I think it summarizes much of what is at the heart of true Christianity. We are devoted to God, devoted to the brethren, devoted to loving and serving our neighbors, devoted to the ministry of reconciliation that God has given us. And if we fail to do that, God may remove our lampstand from its place.

Good points Boot. I think that returning to your first love seems the challenge. In other words, it seems like he was pointing out all the good things they were doing but it can become mechanical in a way? Someone like when you read 1st Corinthians 13 the love chapter. That can be very scary to me- without Love- we can become........
I wonder what the Church in Ephesus did to repent? I read somewhere that they were in existence in the second century.

[Valerie]

Bootstrap, what is your understanding of the lampstand being talked about here and how do you think God removes it and we know it has been removed?

Lets start with Revelation 1:20:

The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

So the stars represent the angels or messengers of the seven churches, and the lampstands represent the seven churches themselves.

Lampstands represent the church's role in shining the light of Christ in the world, spreading the Gospel, and being a witness to the truth. It rhymes with this part of Matthew 5:

You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead, they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

If that lampstand is removed, the church is no longer a light to the world, it loses its mission and its witness and its position in the eyes of God. I don't know exactly how far those consequences reach, but it's clearly not good, and it's clearly serious.

Thankyou. So a local church can lose it's mission to the world in demonstrating the light of Christ and sharing the Gospel and how do we know this has happened ? The text says our light is shone through good deeds in a way that causes others to 'glorify your Father in heaven'.

Benson commentary reads -

That is, that seeing your good works they may both praise God for sending such a religion into the world, and also, embracing your faith, may imitate your holy example, or may be moved to love and serve God as you do, and thereby to glorify him.

There are various Christian groups that do good deeds but they do not appear to be of the quality and/or quantity that causes people to turn to Christ. It could be that these good deeds are done in a way that only brings recognition to themselves as was the case with the Pharisees in Jesus day who wanted the personal recognition of men.

I did some good works this morning by delivering meals to people through a community services program but I believe any glory for this would not be the kind of good deeds that bring people to salvation. God is glorified when we produce the fruit of good works that draws people to Christ. Yes/No ?

We are taught by Scripture to do good works and that can include all kinds of things i believe, that maybe bring glory to God just because unbelievers watching will notice a difference. That may not result in their turning to Christ or not nonetheless it's still shines the light. Jesus was perfect in every way, in works, deeds, serving, miracles- it did cause many to glorify God and come to saving faith. Some became jealous. Some did not want to repent and wanted him removed from the presence of humanity.