Socialism Vs. Capitalism

[Robert]

The thing that some may not understand is individualism does not mean one can not CHOOSE collectivism for some things, It just means we are not forced into it.

Socialism does not allow much individualism and sees it as counter to its purposes.

Individualism sees voluntary collectivism as a strength.

[Szdfan]

The thing that some may not understand is individualism does not mean one can not CHOOSE collectivism for some things, It just means we are not forced into it.

Socialism does not allow much individualism and sees it as counter to its purposes.

Individualism sees voluntary collectivism as a strength.

How many of us have a voluntary choice whether or not to participate in the capitalistic system that we live in? I can't really choose to opt out of capitalism and hope to survive.

[Robert]

I can't really choose to opt out of capitalism and hope to survive.

Just move to Canada. They are all socialists there.

[Szdfan]

I can't really choose to opt out of capitalism and hope to survive.

Just move to Canada. They are all socialists there.

I think choice is complicated and I think part of my issue with your binary is that it has an absolutism that I don't believe reflects or grapples with the complexity of life. We do have choices, but there are also limits to those choices. As the Serenity Prayer puts it --

God, grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change;
Courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

There are many, many things in life that we have no control over. There are many things in society that we cannot change. There are some things that we do have choice over.

I think that capitalism often presents the illusion of choice. I can go to the grocery store and choose from fifty different types of peanut butter, but do I really have a choice about opting out the capitalistic system? I can choose how I live within the system -- what or how much I consume -- but do I really have a choice not to be a consumer? I can choose what kind of career I want to pursue, but do I really have a choice not to have a job and still have some sort of decent life?

I don't ever remember volunteering to be part of a system where a few elite horde all the wealth and can afford to shoot themselves into space while many of us grind away for 40 hours a week in order to live from paycheck to paycheck.

Capitalism is just as much of a system as socialism and through that system, the powerful also control our lives while giving us the illusion of choice. A lot of the choices that capitalism provides are for inconsequential things. We are never really given the choice for things that really matter.

[ohio jones]

I think that capitalism often presents the illusion of choice. I can go to the grocery store and choose from fifty different types of peanut butter, but do I really have a choice about opting out the capitalistic system?

Sure, you can opt out and make your own peanut butter.

[Szdfan]

I think that capitalism often presents the illusion of choice. I can go to the grocery store and choose from fifty different types of peanut butter, but do I really have a choice about opting out the capitalistic system?

Sure, you can opt out and make your own peanut butter.

Maybe you can opt out by degrees, but I don't think you can completely opt out of the system. You can make your own peanut butter, but there will always be something else.

[Robert]

I think choice is complicated and I think part of my issue with your binary is that it has an absolutism that I don't believe reflects or grapples with the complexity of life.

You are talking details. I am talking concepts. I am not making it binary. I have shared before that there is always a need for some collectivism. What I present is our primary desire should be for individualism and only use collectivism when we have to or we voluntarily choose to.

[Robert]

Capitalism is just as much of a system as socialism and through that system, the powerful also control our lives while giving us the illusion of choice.

Socialists gave the free market concept a name to try to make it sound bad and it was all about money. They coined the term capitalism.

Free market and individualism is not about making money or greed. It is about the individual being in control of their lives and choices, as long as they do not take control away from others making their choices.

You seem to keep going to money. Prosperity is a by product of individualism and free markets, but they are not the core reason for them. It is not about greed, but a desire for self determination.

[HondurasKeiser]

viewtopic.php?p=192059#p192059

Robert, in my experience, individualism seems to value MY rights, MY life- basically it's about me and what I can or cannot do- so it is no more community oriented than socialism, etc.

I think that is a misunderstanding of the concept of individualism. It values the individual more than the corporation. The individual rights take priority. It does not mean only my rights, but the rights of EVERY individual, thus the Bill of Rights. The purpose of the Bill of Rights was to limit the corporation of the government.

This means my rights matter as much as your rights. That means I can not use my rights to negatively affect your rights.

Christianity is about the choice of the individual. I see this as core to a personal faith, not a corporate faith.

Having a culture of individualism facilities the ability of people to make personal choices of faith. In some Muslim countries, people are forced to accept Islam or die. Individual rights are almost nonexistent.

Does that clarify things a little better?

I think you're conflating the individualist political project of Liberalism with Christianity. The two are not the same. I am curious about the bolded statement that you made. Why do you believe that: "Christianity is about the choice if the individual, that at its core it is a personal not a corporate faith."?

[Robert]

I think you're conflating the individualist political project of Liberalism with Christianity. The two are not the same. I am curious about the bolded statement that you made. Why do you believe that: "Christianity is about the choice if the individual, that at its core it is a personal not a corporate faith."?

I do not think I am. I am talking conceptual.

I do not have a personal relationship with Jesus because I hang with the cool kids. I must make a personal choice to accept and follow.

I do not make it to heaven because I am in the right tribe. I make it because I, individually, have accepted the gift of Grace through Jesus.

Corporate faith can bolster and strengthen my individual choice, but it does not replace it.

Individual autonomy is required in Christianity. It is also a by product for a culture that is governed by a Judeo-Christian foundation. One must have freedom to make a personal choice.