Race in America: The Marital Counselor Analogy

[Szdfan]

I think we can talk about our own experiences and relationships, as white people.

Not pretending to be experts on what black people should think or feel or do, not pretending to all the answers, but trying to live out the love of Jesus in the situations we actually live in. We can discuss how we, as white people, can do that better.

I understand that, but that's not really marital counseling. It's going to counseling without the other partner and so it's only half of the conversation. I think the danger is that we do fact think we're experts on what black people should think or do, as my little scrap with Temp about Thomas Sowell. Without the other half of the conversation, I think it's super easy to fall into that.

Even in couples counseling, sometimes one partner talks to the counselor to try to figure out how to be a better partner to the other spouse. Those discussions focus on what THAT partner can do, not on what the other partner should do. Not too terribly different from a constructive conversation where two husbands talk about how to be better husbands to their wives, or where two wives talk bout how they can be better wives to their husbands.

Those conversations are quite different from conversations where two husbands trash their wives, go on and on about what their wives should do differently, etc.

I think that racial tensions do exist in America, and even among American Christians. We can constructively discuss what we ourselves can do to strengthen the Kingdom of God across racial lines, to be better neighbors to the black people we know, etc. We can't constructively do much else. Even just admitting that racial tensions are real and that there is a problem is worth something.

I agree that having authentic relationships with Christian POC is key to working through some of the racial tensions.

In counseling, the process is guided by a trained therapist. Who is the therapist on this forum that will guide these conversations?

[temporal1]

.. and black Christians probably aren't either. We have chased a few away over the years when they did participate here briefly. I think the way we discuss things here was probably a factor in chasing them away.

i strongly disagree.
but this reflects where you’re coming from. sad as that is.

your analogy idea was ambitious, for different reasons given by different ones, it doesn’t appear it’s gonna fly.

real marriage counseling with one competent counselor and two willing spouses is difficult, at best.
a failed idea is nothing to be ashamed of.

i never thought of myself as a white Christian. i don’t want to start. thanks, anyway.

[Bootstrap]

.. and black Christians probably aren't either. We have chased a few away over the years when they did participate here briefly. I think the way we discuss things here was probably a factor in chasing them away.

i strongly disagree.

But do they disagree?

From what I know, I think this was a factor with one person.

[RZehr]

There are things that anyone can say, and speak to regardless of their skin color. Certain things are just truth, and should we really hunker down behind skin color instead of just acknowledging truth? I’m think specifically of sin matters, not things that are only social issues.
Should the Gospel have been contained to the Middle East, because of a fear of some weird racial component? Should the Gospel today be silenced because one color of people can’t tell another color anything?

I do think we should seek biblical marital counseling. But it's hard for me to imagine that the tensions between white American Christianity and black American Christianity are about the truth found in the Gospel.

As a white Christian, I do think that white Christians can learn important things about what the Bible teaches from the black preaching tradition. In general, I think black Christians are more familiar with our theological traditions than we are with theirs. In the New Testament, Jews and Greeks had to learn from each other, and it wasn't easy.

I don't understand what part of my post you are replying to.

[RZehr]

.. and black Christians probably aren't either. We have chased a few away over the years when they did participate here briefly. I think the way we discuss things here was probably a factor in chasing them away.

i strongly disagree.

But do they disagree?

From what I know, I think this was a factor with one person.

But is that really a race issue, or is it a general issue? after all, many white people have left (at least apparently) for the same reason - the way things are discussed here.

[Bootstrap]

Even in couples counseling, sometimes one partner talks to the counselor to try to figure out how to be a better partner to the other spouse. Those discussions focus on what THAT partner can do, not on what the other partner should do. Not too terribly different from a constructive conversation where two husbands talk about how to be better husbands to their wives, or where two wives talk bout how they can be better wives to their husbands.

Those conversations are quite different from conversations where two husbands trash their wives, go on and on about what their wives should do differently, etc.

I think that racial tensions do exist in America, and even among American Christians. We can constructively discuss what we ourselves can do to strengthen the Kingdom of God across racial lines, to be better neighbors to the black people we know, etc. We can't constructively do much else. Even just admitting that racial tensions are real and that there is a problem is worth something.

I agree that having authentic relationships with Christian POC is key to working through some of the racial tensions.

In counseling, the process is guided by a trained therapist. Who is the therapist on this forum that will guide these conversations?

Suppose we had some threads where we always speak only from our own experiences and relationships, not using materials created by secular political factions. I think that would be of value even without a trained counselor, even if we can't find Christian POCs to join us here.

Probably not feasible, but suppose we were all able to agree that we don't want political factions to dominate our thinking about race, and stopped citing them as our authorities?

[Bootstrap]

From what I know, I think this was a factor with one person.

But is that really a race issue, or is it a general issue? after all, many white people have left (at least apparently) for the same reason - the way things are discussed here.

I think people kept talking about what black people should think and feel and how they should vote, and she decided this was not a friendly place to engage with white Christians.

Too many white people convinced they are the experts about black people. It wasn't comfortable for her.

[Josh]

.. and black Christians probably aren't either. We have chased a few away over the years when they did participate here briefly. I think the way we discuss things here was probably a factor in chasing them away.

i strongly disagree.

But do they disagree?

From what I know, I think this was a factor with one person.

One of my friends who happens to be both conservative Anabaptist (he and I converted at the same time) and a black American is relatively turned off by MN, but his reasons have nothing to do with race. He thinks I waste my time participating here and arguing with “liberals”.

Obviously that is just one individual, not an entire group.

I think you need to beware of tokenism. He underwent a negative experience getting hired somewhere that was basically pure tokenism. (Him and another person were hired, then instantly showcased in the employee photos section, a press release, and given lofty sounding job titles - but after months and months, no real responsibilities assigned and no input into anything important.) I gained a valuable perspective on how harmful that is. Very few people want to enter a space and then be tasked with representing their race’s views. Nor do they want to be paraded about as a spectacle.

[temporal1]

i strongly disagree.

But do they disagree?
From what I know, I think this was a factor with one person.

But is that really a race issue, or is it a general issue? after all, many white people have left (at least apparently) for the same reason - the way things are discussed here.

i posted, then deleted, ‘cause i think i misunderstood.
i did not know there was even one instance of this (perceived) happening.

[i can’t imagine it because i can’t imagine Hans, Robert, mods, or other members allowing it.]

i sadly agree with RZehr, maybe most leave because they become disillusioned with one or more members, that’s not the only reason.
some have left telling me privately the person’s name, some may have left because of me. i never want that, but i expect it’s true.
none of these was about race or any of the other common complaints, like, age, carnal sin, voting, other ..

[temporal1]

i strongly disagree.

But do they disagree?
From what I know, I think this was a factor with one person.

One of my friends who happens to be both conservative Anabaptist (he and I converted at the same time) and a black American is relatively turned off by MN, but his reasons have nothing to do with race. He thinks I waste my time participating here and arguing with “liberals”.

Obviously that is just one individual, not an entire group.

I think you need to beware of tokenism. He underwent a negative experience getting hired somewhere that was basically pure tokenism. (Him and another person were hired, then instantly showcased in the employee photos section, a press release, and given lofty sounding job titles - but after months and months, no real responsibilities assigned and no input into anything important.) I gained a valuable perspective on how harmful that is. Very few people want to enter a space and then be tasked with representing their race’s views. Nor do they want to be paraded about as a spectacle.

This topic has gone from being an overly ambitious but well intended topic to being a train wreck.
i’ll try not to revisit. God provide me with strength.