Gender confusion

[HondurasKeiser]

Less restrictive alternatives would be things like increased psychological evaluations required before surgical alternatives are employed, increased waiting times, examination of the current standards of care, and so forth. And these issues are more appropriately addressed within the medical community than by state legislators acting due to prejudice or public opinion.

In other words, exactly what was the consensus in the medical community and the standard of care in the 1990s.

Ken, any guesses as to why that all changed?

I'm not an expert on how standards of care have evolved in the past 30 years in this area. If they are getting out too far over their skis then the profession needs to dial things back. Malpractice lawsuits is how that often happens. But again, that is something for the professional boards to address, not state legislators.

If there are large numbers of children who have been ill-served by the medical profession then we will see lots of lawsuits and know it is a problem. If it is mostly fantasy then we won't.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11894975/amp/Pentagon-doctors-say-children-young-SEVEN-able-puberty-blockers.html

[JimFoxvog]

I guess I’ll start using the term “people with DSD” so as to be more respectful. Thank you for that information. I don’t claim to be an expert. I hope I haven’t come across that way.

DSD has been an interest of mine from the time I knew it existed.

I looked up the abbreviation, DSD. Here's what I found.

Acronym Definition
DSD Direct Store Delivery
DSD Direct Stream Digital (Sony digital audio format)
DSD Deutsches Sprachdiplom (German: German Language Diploma)
DSD Development Services Department (various locations)
DSD Decision Support Database
DSD Davis School District (Utah)
DSD Delta Sigma Delta (dental fraternity)
DSD Duales System Deutschland (German)
DSD District of South Dakota (judiciary)
DSD Development Services Division (various locations)
DSD Disorders of Sex Development
DSD Digital Services and Development Unit
DSD Developer Services Division
DSD Data Security Division
DSD Dedicated Server for Domino
DSD Direct Stream Digital
DSD Digital Self Defense
DSD Detailed Systems Design
DSD Direction de la Solidarité Départementale (French: Departmental Directorate for Solidarity)
DSD Digital System Design
DSD Disability Services Division (various locations)
DSD Division of Student Development (various schools)
DSD Drainage Services Department (Hong Kong)
DSD Department of Sustainable Development (UN)
DSD Duct Smoke Detector
DSD Dangerous Substances Directive
DSD Drop Size Distribution
DSD Defense Signals Directorate (AU)
DSD Daggett School District (Utah)
DSD Director of Staff Development
DSD Defense Systems Division
DSD Data Structure Diagram
DSD Document Structure Description (XML)
DSD Deputy Secretary of Defense
DSD Distance Selling Directive (consumer legislation; EU)
DSD Directorate of Staff Duties
DSD Developmental Special Duties
DSD Digital Solutions Division (various companies)
DSD Découpes Systèmes Diamant (French: Diamond Cutting Systems)
DSD Digestive System Disorder
DSD Delaware School for the Deaf
DSD Detailed System Design
DSD Detonation Shock Dynamics
DSD Decision Sight Distance (road design)
DSD Dynamic Separation of Duty
DSD Dear Step Daughter
DSD Dry Sterile Dressing
DSD Division of Shortage Designation
DSD Digital Service Drive (software)
DSD Defence Studies Department (UK Joint Services Command and Staff College)
DSD Daily Security Dialogue
DSD Drug Strategy Directorate (UK)
DSD Digital Sharing Device
DSD Drivers Safety Device
DSD Dynamic Service Delete
DSD Decimated Signal Diagonalization
DSD DropShip Direct (direct mail distribution and logistics company)
DSD Deed to Secure Debt (mortgage type)
DSD Double Shoulder Disarticulation
DSD Drug-Sniffing Dog
DSD Data Sharing Device
DSD Data Specification Document
DSD Design Specification Documents
DSD Direct Services Dialing
DSD Dedicated Server Domino
DSD Data Standards Definition
DSD District Security Division
DSD Deep Submergence Device
DSD Drop Ship Delivery
DSD District Secretary's Division (Sri Lanka)
DSD Data Source Definition
DSD Data Systems Designator
DSD Data Schema Diagram
DSD Dab Session Designs
DSD Doctor in Social Development (various universities)
DSD Double Stamp Day
DSD Data Service Delivery (Sprint)
DSD Demi-Séisme de Dimensionnement (French: Half Earthquake Design; nuclear energy industry)

I presume you are using the 11th meaning?

[Sliceitup]

I presume you are using the 11th meaning?

Yes that is the one I meant. Is this a lot more confusing than the more commonly used phrase ‘intersex’?

[Josh]

I presume you are using the 11th meaning?

Yes that is the one I meant. Is this a lot more confusing than the more commonly used phrase ‘intersex’?

Or perhaps you can just call them men and women and people… or refer to the specific disorder (such as “woman who has CAIS”). “Intersex” implies something that isn’t true. Human beings don’t have two sexes.

[Sliceitup]

I presume you are using the 11th meaning?

Yes that is the one I meant. Is this a lot more confusing than the more commonly used phrase ‘intersex’?

Or perhaps you can just call them men and women and people… or refer to the specific disorder (such as “woman who has CAIS”). “Intersex” implies something that isn’t true. Human beings don’t have two sexes.

I was merely using the word that is commonly used to describe people with disorders of sexual development. At times I refer to those people as a whole, rather than those with specific disorders such as CAIS. At times like that it seems most appropriate to use the word intersex. There was never any intention to say that someone has two sexes.

[Soloist]

Having two threads on very similar topics is confusing. I think it was meant to be posted in the other discussion. Either way I would think it’s relevance is obvious.

It isn't obvious to me. Spell it out. You can do so on the other thread if you want.

My point over on the other thread was that there should be a very high threshold or standard involved if we are going to ask the government to violate people's personal freedom, parental rights, and medial autonomy. Do you think the fact that there some anonymous people posting regrets about their own personal decisions on some obscure corner of reddit somehow meets that threshold?

Is that a good basis for government action? If I found a reddit forum where some anonymous people who caught COVID are posting regrets about their decision not to get vaccinated, would you consider that a compelling argument for the government to impose mandatory vaccine requirements?

I have never advocated for any legal position. I have specifically stated it’s not my place to change the law as a Christian. You keep conflating my posts with a desire to change some government policy. My understanding of your posts is you think that desisted/detransitioned are a very small population of the transgender community. I have pointed out before that the research eliminates them through selective filtering.
I provided the link so you could read their experiences and their opinions on the issues facing transgenders and detrans as both you and I have a very narrow perspective on it. If you see listening to those who actually are in these situations as useless and research articles more valuable, then post one and I can show you why it’s not accurately reflecting this population for who these older laws since changed might have helped. Many of them had little to no gatekeeping and from nothing to hormones or surgery was very quick.

[JimFoxvog]

I presume you are using the 11th meaning?

Yes that is the one I meant. Is this a lot more confusing than the more commonly used phrase ‘intersex’?

No, it just wasn't an acronym in my vocabulary. I didn't even see it defined in the above conversation. This forum is full of acronyms that I find hard to remember and it often confuses me.

[Ken]

Having two threads on very similar topics is confusing. I think it was meant to be posted in the other discussion. Either way I would think it’s relevance is obvious.

It isn't obvious to me. Spell it out. You can do so on the other thread if you want.

My point over on the other thread was that there should be a very high threshold or standard involved if we are going to ask the government to violate people's personal freedom, parental rights, and medial autonomy. Do you think the fact that there some anonymous people posting regrets about their own personal decisions on some obscure corner of reddit somehow meets that threshold?

Is that a good basis for government action? If I found a reddit forum where some anonymous people who caught COVID are posting regrets about their decision not to get vaccinated, would you consider that a compelling argument for the government to impose mandatory vaccine requirements?

I have never advocated for any legal position. I have specifically stated it’s not my place to change the law as a Christian. You keep conflating my posts with a desire to change some government policy. My understanding of your posts is you think that desisted/detransitioned are a very small population of the transgender community. I have pointed out before that the research eliminates them through selective filtering.
I provided the link so you could read their experiences and their opinions on the issues facing transgenders and detrans as both you and I have a very narrow perspective on it. If you see listening to those who actually are in these situations as useless and research articles more valuable, then post one and I can show you why it’s not accurately reflecting this population for who these older laws since changed might have helped. Many of them had little to no gatekeeping and from nothing to hormones or surgery was very quick.

No, that is not a correct summary of my position. A very short summary of my position on this topic would be the following:

1. Sex and gender have always presented themselves on a complex spectrum biologically, psychologically, and socially. This is nothing new. The term Lesbian comes from the ancient Greek Lesbos. We have more words to describe this spectrum today than in the past, and society is more accepting, but I don't think anything much has fundamentally changed. We live in a society governed by a Constitution that is explicitly NOT governed by Biblical principles. To the contrary. The First Amendment prohibits the government from entangling religion and law. So my default principle is that all people should be treated equally and with respect regardless of sex or gender expression. I'm not gay and the notion of being intimate with another man frankly makes my skin crawl. And I find a lot of gender expression these days to be annoying and performative. I teach in a big suburban public school so I see a lot that makes me roll my eyes. But live and let live so to speak. It isn't my place to judge others.

2. As for the issue of youth. There are more openly gay and openly trans youth these days than in the past. Does that mean there are actually more of them? Or that they are just less repressed? I suspect it is mostly the latter. Looking back on my HS days in the 1980s I suspect there were probably just as many gay kids then as today, they were just much more deeply closeted. I also think there are more kids experimenting with gender expression in terms of dress, pronouns, names and such. In the past it was mostly only girls who did that and we called them tomboys or jocks. Today there are boys doing it too when they would have been terrified to do it in the past. And some of it is just ordinary teen rebellion and making their parents uncomfortable. In the 60s it was short skirts on women and long hair on men and lots of kids smoking pot. Today kids make their parents squirm by using different pronouns and such. 20 years from now it will probably be something new. The vast majority of kids these days identifying as trans or LGBT are not receiving any sort of medical treatment. And even if they were it would not particularly concern me providing they are under the care of medical professionals and their parents are involved in the decision-making. That is their right in a free society.

3. There seems to be a lot of trans panic going on in conservative states these days. It is the new culture war issue. Anti-trans laws are being passed across red America. Everything from bathroom laws, anti-pronoun laws, prohibitions on medical treatment, permissions to discriminate, etc. I think all of it is completely unprincipled and frankly unamerican and shameful. Advocates of anti-trans laws use nothing more than anecdotes to support government intervention. The occasional example of some teen who regrets their transition. Or questionable anecdotes from activists with clear biases. None of it remotely rises to the level of a public health concern that would normally mandate government intervention in any other setting. For example, more children die each year from farm accidents on family farms than actually undergo trans surgery of any kind. Yet I don't see conservatives asking OSHA to regulate kids working on family farms.

4. Stories about de-transitioning youth and adults frankly don't concern me much either. Apparently that was the point of the reddit forum you were pointing to. All the studies that are actually published and peer reviewed point to low levels of dissatisfaction. People like you claim those studies are flawed but can't point to any other legitimate numbers, only anecdotes like reddit forums. I'm frankly not really very concerned about it. People are free to make mistakes and it isn't the government's role to regulate everything in life. When the government does step in I think it has a high threshold to meet. take COVID for example, we have seen over 1 million Americans die of COVID in the past 2 years yet there are many here and in society to resist any public health measures at all from vaccines, to masking in public places to social distancing, etc. We had crazy people outside the school I worked at in 2021 screaming at kids walking into school with masks on.

So the fact that some percentage of trans people come to regret their personal decisions? That's life. Real life is full of regrets. Suck it up, take responsibility for your own decisions, and move on. Just like Mike said over on the Philadelphia thread: "Sure, and let them bear the consequences. I'm fine with aiding people who have made bad choices so they don't starve, die for lack of medical care, or have to live in the streets, but I don't know whether society owes them much more than that." He is talking at least in part about teenagers. The vast majority of transgender teens and adults do not regret their choices even though they likely find that they aren't magic solutions that fix everything. And that is because appearance is superficial and fleeting anyway. If a few kids come to regret the choices they made to modify their bodies through medication and surgeries. Live with it. With every life choice there is a consequence. Very few people actually get to live their lives looking like beautiful models of masculinity or femininity and even that is fleeting. Kids are constantly making every kind of life mistake. They get pregnant, drop out of school, commit crimes, pair up with the wrong people, do drugs, drive recklessly. Lots of those choices have life-altering consequences. In 15 years of teaching, the number of students I have lost due to reckless driving and reckless boating I can count on more than one hand. Yet we still give cars to 16 year olds. And have built a society in which there are few alternatives to teen driving.

Finally, to the extent that there are issues with people being ill served by the medical profession. Well, frankly that is what medical licensing boards, malpractice lawsuits, and peer reviewed science is for. I don't buy that there is some vast conspiracy within the medical profession to convince non-trans kids to be trans. I just don't. I think the vast majority of doctors and psychologists are truly trying to do the right thing and serve their patients as best as they can. And as medicine and society advances those practices will evolve and change. Whether we are talking about treatment for diabetes, schizophrenia, anorexia, diet, heart disease, and yes, transgender care. I also disagree with your assertion that the " Many of them had little to no gatekeeping and from nothing to hormones or surgery was very quick." Given the vanishingly small number of teens who have actually had surgery that is clearly not the case. It 2021 it was less than 300. In a country this large you can find anecdotes to prove anything. That doesn't make them generalizable. A lot of liberals in this country believe that the Catholic clergy is a cult of pedophiles, that Amish abuse their children, and that "youth pastor" is a synonym for "groomer" Could I find horrifying anecdotes to support those notions? Absolutely. And I promise you there are also reddit forums where lots of people exchange stories about their abusive experiences with Catholic clergy, Amish life, and Baptist youth pastors. But do such anecdotes accurately characterize those groups and merit government intervention and regulation. You tell me.

Finally, I don't think it is the role of state legislators in a free society to jump in and seek to regulate or outlaw the medical or life choices of teens or adults, especially when no larger public health issues are involved. I find that unamerican. And if they are going to do so they should be governed by general and universal principles and standards for safety and public health. That are applied universally and equally. Not their own prejudice or the prejudices of their constituents.

[Soloist]

Got it. You don’t care to evaluate the data because you believe it’s accurate without examining the bias.

I also disagree with your assertion that the " Many of them had little to no gatekeeping and from nothing to hormones or surgery was very quick.

I was directly referring to the accounts on Reddit.

[Ken]

Got it. You don’t care to evaluate the data because you believe it’s accurate without examining the bias.

I also disagree with your assertion that the " Many of them had little to no gatekeeping and from nothing to hormones or surgery was very quick.

I was directly referring to the accounts on Reddit.

Like I said in the post above:

Given the vanishingly small number of teens who have actually had surgery that is clearly not the case. It 2021 it was less than 300. In a country this large you can find anecdotes to prove anything. That doesn't make them generalizable. A lot of liberals in this country believe that the Catholic clergy is a cult of pedophiles, that Amish abuse their children, and that "youth pastor" is a synonym for "groomer" Could I find horrifying anecdotes to support those notions? Absolutely. And I promise you there are also reddit forums where lots of people exchange stories about their abusive experiences with Catholic clergy, Amish life, and Baptist youth pastors. But do such anecdotes accurately characterize those groups and merit government intervention and regulation? You tell me.