Biden's New Border Policy

[joshuabgood]

What is meant by depending on the context? In what context would you not hire someone who is not compliant with US immigration law? If, because of being in Jesus Kingdom, we as employers are not required to abide by immigration laws and by extension, tax withholding laws, there really should be no problem hiring those who are not compliant.

Hiring a day laborer, or some other person in need, feels like it's in the spirit of the Bible verse I quoted earlier about treating the stranger just as you would a natural citizen. And also loving him as you would yourself. I gave an example of that earlier in the thread.

As it relates to advocating for Kingdom values to be implemented by government officials, doesn't it seem a bit strange to be telling them, in essence, to remain in those positions so that they can implement Kingdom values so that the world becomes a better place, rather than appealing to them to get out of those positions and inviting them to join us in the Kingdom of Jesus? If we want them to implement Kingdom values, then why not get ourselves elected so that we can more effectively push for those values to be implemented in earthly governing?

How did Jesus disciple the centurion? Or Paul the jailer? Or Paul Agrippa? Or Peter the centurion? Were they called out first?

I think you are making a distinction without a difference. Let's just focus on implementation of Kingdom values and the sorting will occur...as the discipleship lands.

There is more than one way to live out Jesus teachings. Mennos went to CPS and in the Civil War paid sub taxes. Quakers refused to hire subs or pay a deferment fee. Desmond Doss left a legacy of love and service on the field refusing to carry a gun.

[barnhart]

I think JBG is not advocating political or legal open borders but rather that kingdom citizens extract worldly values about empire and borders from their worldview and replace them with values that align with Jesus' kingdom. The exact way this might play out is unknown, but how can this be wrong.

[GaryK]

The main reason I advocate for people from "poorer" countries to not come to America is because of what I have seen America do to numerous fellow followers of Jesus as it relates to losing out on Kingdom values. Is that a good reason?

My ancestors came to America to have a better chance at providing for their families. Some may have come for religious freedom also but many came for a better economic future. Interestingly, the ones who stayed in Europe mostly lost the faith within several generations. The ones who came to America mostly lost their faith in several generations also.

But those who continued to teach the pilgrim and stranger lifestyle, like Jonadab and Rechab, have preserved a faithful posterity right here in America. I think Africans and Asians and Latin Americans can do the same. But it won't happen by accident.

If the settlers in Jamestown, VA, and the settlers in Plymouth, MA would have told our ancestors to not come to America or they might lose their Kingdom values, it is hard telling what I would be believing today, or if I would even be alive.

I wonder what some of the causes were behind those of your ancestors both in Europe and America losing their faith?

I'm not saying it's inevitable that people will lose faith by coming to America and I'm sure there are many who do retain their faith. But the America of today is significantly different than it was in the days of the settlers and I'm guessing it was easier to live out Kingdom values in America then than it was in Europe.

Today, if someone new to the faith would ask me what country is most conducive to being able to live out Kingdom values, I would not suggest that it's America.

[GaryK]

I think JBG is not advocating political or legal open borders but rather that kingdom citizens extract worldly values about empire and borders from their worldview and replace them with values that align with Jesus' kingdom. The exact way this might play out is unknown, but how can this be wrong.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that he would advocate for governments to adopt how it will be when the Kingdom of Jesus is fully come.

[joshuabgood]

I think JBG is not advocating political or legal open borders but rather that kingdom citizens extract worldly values about empire and borders from their worldview and replace them with values that align with Jesus' kingdom. The exact way this might play out is unknown, but how can this be wrong.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that he would advocate for governments to adopt how it will be when the Kingdom of Jesus is fully come.

I am advocating for everyone everywhere, every business, economy, polity, and society, adopt the full Kingdom principles and yield to the rule and reign of Jesus. Every knee bow and every tongue confess. To the extent that that is done, salvation is brought to earth as also in heaven.

When that fully happens the geopolitical nation states, with their artificial borders, will be ended.

[GaryK]

What is meant by depending on the context? In what context would you not hire someone who is not compliant with US immigration law? If, because of being in Jesus Kingdom, we as employers are not required to abide by immigration laws and by extension, tax withholding laws, there really should be no problem hiring those who are not compliant.

Hiring a day laborer, or some other person in need, feels like it's in the spirit of the Bible verse I quoted earlier about treating the stranger just as you would a natural citizen. And also loving him as you would yourself. I gave an example of that earlier in the thread.

It seems you are sort of dancing around the question of our obligation to obey the laws of earthly governments. Is there a context in which you as an employer would not hire a non-compliant immigrant?

As it relates to advocating for Kingdom values to be implemented by government officials, doesn't it seem a bit strange to be telling them, in essence, to remain in those positions so that they can implement Kingdom values so that the world becomes a better place, rather than appealing to them to get out of those positions and inviting them to join us in the Kingdom of Jesus? If we want them to implement Kingdom values, then why not get ourselves elected so that we can more effectively push for those values to be implemented in earthly governing?

How did Jesus disciple the centurion? Or Paul the jailer? Or Paul Agrippa? Or Peter the centurion? Were they called out first?

I don't think in any of these cases though, that Jesus, Paul or Peter were advocating for Kingdom values to be implemented within those professions.

[GaryK]

I think JBG is not advocating political or legal open borders but rather that kingdom citizens extract worldly values about empire and borders from their worldview and replace them with values that align with Jesus' kingdom. The exact way this might play out is unknown, but how can this be wrong.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that he would advocate for governments to adopt how it will be when the Kingdom of Jesus is fully come.

I am advocating for everyone everywhere, every business, economy, polity, and society, adopt the full Kingdom principles and yield to the rule and reign of Jesus. Every knee bow and every tongue confess. To the extent that that is done, salvation is brought to earth as also in heaven.

When that fully happens the geopolitical nation states, with their artificial borders, will be ended.

So just to be clear, you are advocating for open borders?

[barnhart]

So just to be clear, you are advocating for open borders?

Open borders is a political/legal policy. Suppose I advocate for believers (1)"if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well" and (2) everyone should follow Jesus, does it follow that I advocate the legal dissolution of private property rights.

[joshuabgood]

So just to be clear, you are advocating for open borders?

Open borders is a political/legal policy. Suppose I advocate for believers (1)"if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well" and (2) everyone should follow Jesus, does it follow that I advocate the legal dissolution of private property rights.

Exactly

[Josh]

The binary simply was to illustrate that "making a bigger income" being cast as a bad thing or bad desire ignores the reality that in some cases it is an economic necessity. Wouldnt you agree that that was the insinuation, that coming to the USA for a bigger income was ethically problematic, when the fact is, we don't even know if that is the case for any particular immigrant family.

Actually, jbg, we do know! HK gave us a specific example and also told us that what he described is the norm; that the people he knows are not just trying to put food on the table, but are abandoning their families to pursue wealth.