Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Josh]

I guess Ukrainians are (western) Catholics now, not Orthodox.

No, the Ukrainian Orthodox has severed ties with the Russian Orthodox Church based on Moscow. Choosing to celebrate Christmas on December 25 doesn't make them Catholics any more than it makes Mennonites Catholics for celebrating Christmas on December 25.

This is actually a bigger fight that goes way beyond Christmas. The Russian Orthodox Church is actually illegally seizing Ukrainian Orthodox churches and church properties in the occupied parts of Donetsk and Luhansk. They are also seizing protestant churches in the occupied territories as well. And now Ukraine is doing the same thing with Russian Orthodox churches in Ukraine So the schism between the two branches of the church in Ukraine seems to be growing.

Prior to the war, a majority of Ukrainians identified with the Kyiv Patriarch rather than with Moscow. I assume that trend will increase. It's not a question of whether Ukraine will be Orthodox, but rather which Orthodox Church they will be a part of.

Eastern Orthodoxy has been identified for a very long time as rejecting Catholic calendar reforms. Whatever you want to call this split off is no longer part of “Eastern Orthodoxy”, much as Mennonites are no longer Roman Catholics, even though we split from them and still maintain a lot of their traditions.

[Ken]

No, the Ukrainian Orthodox has severed ties with the Russian Orthodox Church based on Moscow. Choosing to celebrate Christmas on December 25 doesn't make them Catholics any more than it makes Mennonites Catholics for celebrating Christmas on December 25.

This is actually a bigger fight that goes way beyond Christmas. The Russian Orthodox Church is actually illegally seizing Ukrainian Orthodox churches and church properties in the occupied parts of Donetsk and Luhansk. They are also seizing protestant churches in the occupied territories as well. And now Ukraine is doing the same thing with Russian Orthodox churches in Ukraine So the schism between the two branches of the church in Ukraine seems to be growing.

Prior to the war, a majority of Ukrainians identified with the Kyiv Patriarch rather than with Moscow. I assume that trend will increase. It's not a question of whether Ukraine will be Orthodox, but rather which Orthodox Church they will be a part of.

Eastern Orthodoxy has been identified for a very long time as rejecting Catholic calendar reforms. Whatever you want to call this split off is no longer part of “Eastern Orthodoxy”, much as Mennonites are no longer Roman Catholics, even though we split from them and still maintain a lot of their traditions.

Sure, but that doesn't make them Catholics any more than the Greek Orthodox church is Catholic because they aren't subservient to Moscow either. There are actually 17 different branches of the Orthodox church and the Russian one is one of the more junior ones.

[Josh]

What does Russia have to do with this?

Observing Christmas in December 25th is entirely a Roman Catholic, Latin Rite thing (including all its Protestant descendants). No other branch of Christianity does this.

[Ken]

What does Russia have to do with this?

Observing Christmas in December 25th is entirely a Roman Catholic, Latin Rite thing (including all its Protestant descendants). No other branch of Christianity does this.

Ukrainians turned changing the date of Christmas into an anti-Russian statement, not a pro-Catholic statement

Read the article or google. There were hundreds of news articles about this topic,

[Soloist]

Nominal Orthodox decided to make a statement on something being anti Russia. They could have said they won’t drink vodka anymore because of Russia. Makes about as much sense as freedom fries.

[temporal1]

What does Russia have to do with this?

Observing Christmas in December 25th is entirely a Roman Catholic, Latin Rite thing (including all its Protestant descendants). No other branch of Christianity does this.

Referring to mike’s post, P.222, about putin’s attempt at a ceasefire, there was NO reference to Christianity, i just happened to think of the Epiphany - which is probably observed on a later day in Russia? Jan 19? Not Jan 6. i added that every moment is one to pray for resolution, in my view.

If Ukraine ends with the West, they will be flying gaudy rainbow flags of some variation, they just keep getting uglier; Ukranian lives might be more familiar to them, in religion and culture, if they end in part or more with Russia. imho.

There are 2 wolves in Ukraine. i do not see the West as a harmless, guiltless, guileless, saviour of Ukraine.

i think much of the to-do here on the ceasefire is pretty much blowin’ smoke, not about Ukraine,
but more about petty+dedicated dislike of conservative older women/folks, parents, grandparents, etc., as has become the daily fare on this forum, as in the world - anyone unlikely to promote lib scripts cannot be tolerated, even when encouraging prayers for resolution. no matter topic.

MD-MN used to be a place where prayers were respected.
it was even a place where acts of reaching out to (difficult to reach) folks, like Westboro Church, were suggested and discussed,
like setting up tables to offer sandwiches+drinks in peace at locations expected to be troublesome.

in other words, attempting to do the opposite of human nature. not returning fire for fire.
where has that gone?

[Josh]

What does Russia have to do with this?

Observing Christmas in December 25th is entirely a Roman Catholic, Latin Rite thing (including all its Protestant descendants). No other branch of Christianity does this.

Ukrainians turned changing the date of Christmas into an anti-Russian statement, not a pro-Catholic statement

Read the article or google. There were hundreds of news articles about this topic,

… in other words, aligning themselves with the West (just like they did on WWII when they aligned with the Axis powers against Soviet Russia).

[Bootstrap]

Referring to mike’s post about putin’s attempt at a ceasefire, there was NO reference to Christianity

I think there was. The Kremlin's website says this:

Given that a large number of citizens practicing Orthodoxy resides in the areas of hostilities, we call on the Ukrainian side to announce a cease-fire and give them an opportunity to attend services on Christmas Eve and the day of Christ’s birth.

So it's not surprising that the Ukranian Defense minister responded as he did:

MD-MN used to be a place where prayers were respected.

I think we would all agree to pray for peace in Ukraine. I don't like prayer being used as a cover for excusing Putin's unilateral military invasion. MN used to be a place where unprovoked invasions that result in the mass destruction of civilian lives was considered a bad thing, and the countries that do so were considered immoral aggressors.

[Ken]

What does Russia have to do with this?

Observing Christmas in December 25th is entirely a Roman Catholic, Latin Rite thing (including all its Protestant descendants). No other branch of Christianity does this.

Ukrainians turned changing the date of Christmas into an anti-Russian statement, not a pro-Catholic statement

Read the article or google. There were hundreds of news articles about this topic,

… in other words, aligning themselves with the West (just like they did on WWII when they aligned with the Axis powers against Soviet Russia).

Well yes, the east is bringing nothing but death, destruction, repression, and genocide. Seems like a pretty easy call.

Russia was viewed favorably by about 60% of Ukrainians prior to 2014. Now the figure is down to about 2%. They only have themselves to blame.

[Bootstrap]

… in other words, aligning themselves with the West (just like they did on WWII when they aligned with the Axis powers against Soviet Russia).

Would you feel that way about World War II? Was it wrong for nations to align themselves with the Allies? Should we have been more charitable in our views of Hitler?

Starting the biggest war in Europe since World War II? Not a good thing. Decimating cities and hospitals and schools? Not cool. Telling your neighbor they do not have the right to decide how they want to be governed? Not the kind of thing we should be eager to provide cover for. Overtly threatening Western Europe, increasing starvation worldwide by stomping on food supplies ... tearing children away from parents and deporting them ... raping women in the civilian population ... sending cruise missiles to take out the civilian energy supply ...

Those things are bad. If the things the US did in Vietnam and Iraq were bad - and they were - these things are also bad. Even if they are anti-Western aggression. I mean, is anti-Western a goal?