Assisted suicide and life support.

[Soloist]

Please respond to scenario and questions. Background doesn’t matter.
A scenario that is on our mind lately, thankfully we are not involved.

person has a heart attack 20 minutes of cpr with total support required feeding/vent with no detectable brain activity.
Disconnect them from active support and they continue breathing.
1: Is the action of not providing food via tube to this person assisted suicide?
Why? why not?

2: Is it appropriate to make these choices as a Christian?
Why? Why not?

3: if answer to 1 is yes it is assisted suicide, how long does one provide respiratory and dietary support to apparent brain dead individual?

4: if answer to 1 is no it is not assisted suicide, how long is an appropriate length of time to assess before pulling the “plug”?

5: as a Christian is there anything wrong with advanced directives?
Why? Why not?

6: if you believe advanced directives are wrong for the Christian, do you take any effort to prevent the implementation of advanced directives on loved ones or do you allow it?

Do your answers change depending on if they are believers?

[Ken]

Every one I am close to in my extended family has advanced directives of some sort. Mostly to save family from having to make difficult decisions for themselves in a time of crisis. And I recently had an elderly uncle die of cancer. The family all gathered to be with him during his last days and then left him die after he lost consciousness and did not employ medical technology to keep his cells metabolizing for a few days longer as a vegetable. Which is all that medical intervention would have accomplished for an 89 year old with Stage IV cancer that has metastasized throughout his body. They did provide opioid painkillers to ease the pain in his last days.

My understanding of the belief in my Menno family is that one doesn't go against God's will by either: (1) ending someone's life prematurely, or (2) using artificial means to extend it when someone is in a vegetative state with no hope of recovery. Put another way, when your time has come then God will take you as has always been the case. No one moves on to the next life without first dying.

Of course every scenario is different which makes these choices difficult. I would be more inclined to keep someone alive if there even a remote chance of a full recovery. Which is a different scenario than someone with stage IV cancer who will die within days anyway.

[RZehr]

Do your answers change depending on if they are believers?

No.

[ABC 123]

To be a suicide, wouldn't a person have to be intentionally ending their own life? In a medical situation where the choices are left to family members, technically the question is: is it murdering them to withhold life support absent their ability to survive without it.

There are a lot of factors that go into family members deciding these things. One size does not fit all.

[Ken]

To be a suicide, wouldn't a person have to be intentionally ending their own life? In a medical situation where the choices are left to family members, technically the question is: is it murdering them to withhold life support absent their ability to survive without it.

There are a lot of factors that go into family members deciding these things. One size does not fit all.

I think what he is talking about is a situation where the victim has an advance directive in place so the only decision for family is whether to honor that person's wishes or not.

SOMEONE has to ultimately make the decision about end-of-life care and there are only three logical choices: (1) The person himself or herself (by advance directive), (2) the family in the moment of crisis, or (3) the doctor or doctors involved in the care.

[Soloist]

To be a suicide, wouldn't a person have to be intentionally ending their own life? In a medical situation where the choices are left to family members, technically the question is: is it murdering them to withhold life support absent their ability to survive without it.

There are a lot of factors that go into family members deciding these things. One size does not fit all.

I think what he is talking about is a situation where the victim has an advance directive in place so the only decision for family is whether to honor that person's wishes or not.

SOMEONE has to ultimately make the decision about end-of-life care and there are only three logical choices: (1) The person himself or herself (by advance directive), (2) the family in the moment of crisis, or (3) the doctor or doctors involved in the care.

Actually this person does not have advanced directives, the family removed life support and while he is still breathing I don't expect him to live more then a week at most without assistance assuming he even is alive.
Its interesting that no one has followed the questions which addressed a few different aspects. This isn't a situation I'm asking advice on as we are not in it but was interested in seeing people's responses to the question.

[Josh]

Please respond to scenario and questions. Background doesn’t matter.
A scenario that is on our mind lately, thankfully we are not involved.

person has a heart attack 20 minutes of cpr with total support required feeding/vent with no detectable brain activity.
Disconnect them from active support and they continue breathing.
1: Is the action of not providing food via tube to this person assisted suicide?
Why? why not?

No. The person is no longer viable and I find the idea of trying to keep people alive indefinitely to be a bit grisly. (So is the idea of them dehydrating to death.)

2: Is it appropriate to make these choices as a Christian?
Why? Why not?

I would say it is on a case by case basis. It’s not unethical to keep them alive for a bit to see if they recover, but I’m not sure about the ethics of being in a feeding tube for decades.

3: if answer to 1 is yes it is assisted suicide, how long does one provide respiratory and dietary support to apparent brain dead individual?

I’m not sure but I think a few weeks is a good threshold. 10 years is too long.

4: if answer to 1 is no it is not assisted suicide, how long is an appropriate length of time to assess before pulling the “plug”?

Seems case by case.

Incidentally the most common scenarios I know of are babies born brain dead. It seems very odd for someone to be in a vent and a feeding tube their entire life. I feel like a few weeks is an acceptable length of time - but perhaps just being born and dying peacefully is closer to God’s plan.

5: as a Christian is there anything wrong with advanced directives?
Why? Why not?

I have found these difficult to deal with and feel better leaving it up to family, etc. to make those decisions dynamically with verbal discussion of what seems right before it happens.

For example my mother wants zero intervention - none - not even a vent. But it’s not in writing. I feel like as a family we can honour this best without her first having to write a strict DNR AD.

6: if you believe advanced directives are wrong for the Christian, do you take any effort to prevent the implementation of advanced directives on loved ones or do you allow it?

I have not bothered to have any although I think I have a stale one from 2011 still on file somewhere.

I am no longer an organ donor as I don’t support restricting donating organs to only vaccinated people due to foetal stem cell use in vaccines. I would feel confident putting they into writing. If they would allow me to donate organs to unvaccinated people as well I would be happy to donate.

Do your answers change depending on if they are believers?

No.

[Josh]

Actually this person does not have advanced directives, the family removed life support and while he is still breathing I don't expect him to live more then a week at most without assistance assuming he even is alive.
Its interesting that no one has followed the questions which addressed a few different aspects. This isn't a situation I'm asking advice on as we are not in it but was interested in seeing people's responses to the question.

My grandpa absolutely refused medical care at the end of his life (in his 80s) and basically dehydrated to death as he eventually was so weak he couldn’t eat nor drink. He was adamant he did not have any desire to see a hospital or even a doctor. He simply wished to stay home.

[Soloist]

Actually this person does not have advanced directives, the family removed life support and while he is still breathing I don't expect him to live more then a week at most without assistance assuming he even is alive.
Its interesting that no one has followed the questions which addressed a few different aspects. This isn't a situation I'm asking advice on as we are not in it but was interested in seeing people's responses to the question.

My grandpa absolutely refused medical care at the end of his life (in his 80s) and basically dehydrated to death as he eventually was so weak he couldn’t eat nor drink. He was adamant he did not have any desire to see a hospital or even a doctor. He simply wished to stay home.

For my wife and I we both would worry about our families trying to take over or decide one of us was trying to kill the other. We've been considering advanced directives to avoid that.

[QuietlyListening]

The person appears to be brain dead- keeping his body alive seems unnecessary. Hard on family too.

As for advanced directives- our children are aware of how we feel and instead of giving directives as things vary according to a situation and the AD does not always deal with those- we have medical power of attorney for all our children and each other so if a scenario arises we can make decisions as needed.

A feeding tube may be necessary in one instance but in another may just prolong life unnecessarily.
I look at assisted suicide more as giving morphine enough to put the person to sleep permanently.
I had a friend with ALS who refused CPAP and feeding tube. She was ready to die when the Lord took her and lived as fully as she could while alive but why stay alive to stay alive. Her husband was on board. That isn't assisted suicide it is allowing a person to die with dignity.
I don't see giving a person drugs to hasten death chemically as dying with dignity, I see that as killing the person. Just my opinion. I was a hospice nurse and saw many scenarios but didn't see anyone wanting to assist their loved one in dying.