Amish farm under threat from U.S. federal govt for refusal to abandon traditional farming practices

[Judas Maccabeus]

Some food is simply not growable in a pesticide free world. Try Squash.

I find it a marketing ploy as well.

Is it a good idea to grow food which is only possible by flooding waterways with toxic chemicals?

Long term, this leads to things like the Aral Sea disaster. I don't think bigger deserts is a good thing.

I guess you have not tried to actually grow squash. You will have squash borers before you pick anything. Better a low persistence pesticide like Sevin applied according to label instructions than not to grow anything.

J.M.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Religious persecution is real and exits in this world but I don't think should be defined as a law preventing me from doing what I want. Several years ago a religious freedom case made it to the supreme Court where First Nations reserved their traditional rights to smoke peyote in religious ceremony. If I recall correctly, justice Scalia wrote for the majority that controlled substance laws apply to everyone equally, this did not constitute an infringement of religious freedom.

In this society (and every modern society) we have a large number of health and safety regulations as well as lots of general design and organizational regulations to make or society function smoothly and efficiently.

... yet Americans are sicker and fatter and more obese than they've ever been. The life expectancy for men recently declined below age 70.

Real "smoothly and efficiently" you have there.

Face it - all these rules and regulations mostly have one effect: helping the rich get even richer and raising barriers of entry to small producers, and stamping out anyone who wants to do thinks with organic, traditional, old-fashioned ways. If there really was so much concern about food safety, then fast food restaurants would be illegal. Yet they aren't. They were, instead, classified as "essential businesses" during the pandemic - because, apparently, getting sodas and Big Macs is "essential".

I would suggest you read Jonathan Metzl's "Dying of Whiteness" if you want to understand the shortening life expectancy od the white working class. He has actually done considerable research, and I see the truth of his conclusions played out on my doorstep. Food is only one symptom of a larger picture.

[Ken]

Actually, quite a few people have done analyses of "food deserts" created by mass-scale stores like this and how it eventually leads to much less availability of things like fresh produce. The problem where lots of people only have affordable access to unhealthy, heavily processed food is very well documented.

That's why trying to shut someone down like Miller is so misguided.

No one wants to put Miller out of business. In fact he is still in business. They just want him to follow the same food safety regulations as everyone else.

Instead of doing that and putting this matter to rest long ago as most rational people would have done, he chose to dive deep into sovereign citizen fantasy-land. Which will apparently land you on FOX news and make you a hero on various fringe right-wing sites. But isn't going to get you out of the growing list of fines and violations that comes along with openly defying government regulations. When the right-wing world tires of Miller and moves on to the next shiny toy or faux outrage on Twitter he will still be stuck in a spiderweb that is entirely of his own making.

[Szdfan]

I prefer to know the farmer I’m getting the food from and see what he’s doing versus having an “organic” label approved by the USDA/FDA, who have already proven they don’t care much about actual health.

I rarely buy things labelled organic. In the case of Miller’s farm, his members are demanding a much higher standard than mass produced “organic” food.

[RZehr]

Some food is simply not growable in a pesticide free world. Try Squash.

I find it a marketing ploy as well.

Is it a good idea to grow food which is only possible by flooding waterways with toxic chemicals?

Long term, this leads to things like the Aral Sea disaster. I don't think bigger deserts is a good thing.

I guess you have not tried to actually grow squash. You will have squash borers before you pick anything. Better a low persistence pesticide like Sevin applied according to label instructions than not to grow anything.

J.M.

I can’t imagine. Squash is about the easiest of all garden stuff to grow here without pesticides.

I went through all the very difficult and complicated, slow and expensive approvals to get a farm certified organic. I am dropping the certification before one crop is harvested because the financials just didn’t make sense for us.

[Ernie]

All this organic conversation is interesting but it really misses the point. The point is that people can legally obtain, locally sourced beef, inexpensively.

[JohnHurt]

Is it a good idea to grow food which is only possible by flooding waterways with toxic chemicals?

Long term, this leads to things like the Aral Sea disaster. I don't think bigger deserts is a good thing.

I guess you have not tried to actually grow squash. You will have squash borers before you pick anything. Better a low persistence pesticide like Sevin applied according to label instructions than not to grow anything.

J.M.

I can’t imagine. Squash is about the easiest of all garden stuff to grow here without pesticides.

I went through all the very difficult and complicated, slow and expensive approvals to get a farm certified organic. I am dropping the certification before one crop is harvested because the financials just didn’t make sense for us.

Raymond,

My friend's family runs a CSA and they skirt all of the government nonsense by calling their products "beyond organic". And it is.

This year, for the first time, I am using the "Ruth Stout" method of gardening, where you cover the garden with a foot of hay, and pull back the hay to plant. Four squash plants produced more than anyone could eat. No fertilizer, as the hay breaks down and provides nutrients. Also, no weeding, or watering, as the hay blocks out the sun for the weeds, and holds in the moisture. It literally creates an earthworm farm - the biggest worms I have ever seen. Super easy, just get a few rolls of spoiled hay, and you are in business.

If you rigorously spray chemicals on your garden and use chemical fertilizer, you will kill the earthworms, and all of the other flora and fauna at the microscopic level. After a few years, you will have more diseases than produce.

[JohnHurt]

So, looking at the original video:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/FW8A_4dUhMg

Miller has 4,000 customers, and no one is complaining. He is a threat to the large food producers, as he is producing something that people want. He is not tied to gas or fertilizer prices, so his food will not only be better, but more economical.

It looks like the USDA is wanting access to Miller's farm at all times, and that is the problem. This is the same reason they went after the Chickweed Salve Amish farmer. They can show up at your property, without a warrant based on probable cause, and fine you for anything they don't like.

Miller is not selling to the public, he is selling to his "club". This has nothing to do with the USDA or interstate commerce, it is a private treaty.

A $300,000 fine has nothing to do with "correction" of Mr. Miller, but the elimination of him and his business.

The 10th Amendment to the Constitution states:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

The USDA, the FDA, the FBI, ATF, DOJ, DEA - all of these agencies, are not in the US Constitution, and should operate at the State level, and not at the Federal level. Or else, they need to amend the Constitution.

If you remember the Prohibition of Alcohol, they had to pass an amendment to the Constitution to start Prohibition, and another to end it - as at that time, Congress lacked the ability to operate outside the 10th Amendment.

Because of WWII, Congress created the Dept of Defense without changing the Constitution, and then created the other "3 letter" agencies at the Federal level, all of which violate the 10th Amendment. The 1968 Gun Control Act and 1968 Controlled Substances act - no one ever even thought they would have to pass these as amendment to the Constitution, as they did in the early part of the 20th century for Prohibition.

Although some of these laws are needed, when they are administered at the State level, the average person can object to the law through the State Legislature, or move to another State. At the Federal level, you have very little recourse.

[Ken]

So, looking at the original video:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/FW8A_4dUhMg

Miller has 4,000 customers, and no one is complaining. He is a threat to the large food producers, as he is producing something that people want. He is not tied to gas or fertilizer prices, so his food will not only be better, but more economical.

It looks like the USDA is wanting access to Miller's farm at all times, and that is the problem. This is the same reason they went after the Chickweed Salve Amish farmer. They can show up at your property, without a warrant based on probable cause, and fine you for anything they don't like.

Miller is not selling to the public, he is selling to his "club". This has nothing to do with the USDA or interstate commerce, it is a private treaty.

A $300,000 fine has nothing to do with "correction" of Mr. Miller, but the elimination of him and his business.

The 10th Amendment to the Constitution states:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

The USDA, the FDA, the FBI, ATF, DOJ, DEA - all of these agencies, are not in the US Constitution, and should operate at the State level, and not at the Federal level. Or else, they need to amend the Constitution.

If you remember the Prohibition of Alcohol, they had to pass an amendment to the Constitution to start Prohibition, and another to end it - as at that time, Congress lacked the ability to operate outside the 10th Amendment.

Because of WWII, Congress created the Dept of Defense without changing the Constitution, and then created the other "3 letter" agencies at the Federal level, all of which violate the 10th Amendment. The 1968 Gun Control Act and 1968 Controlled Substances act - no one ever even thought they would have to pass these as amendment to the Constitution, as they did in the early part of the 20th century for Prohibition.

Although some of these laws are needed, when they are administered at the State level, the average person can object to the law through the State Legislature, or move to another State. At the Federal level, you have very little recourse.

I expect if he is interested he could get a good lawyer and negotiate a settlement with the government that involves a partial or full suspension of fines combined with some sort of long-term compliance agreement and then just move on with his life and business. That is how these things usually work.

But if he still wants to tilt and windmills with the sovereign citizen foolishness and the fake "club" and legal arguments about the unconstitutionality of the FDA and USDA then he is probably in for a long haul of legal trouble. Costco is a "membership club" too and so is REI but that doesn't get them off the hook for any regulations.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Is it a good idea to grow food which is only possible by flooding waterways with toxic chemicals?

Long term, this leads to things like the Aral Sea disaster. I don't think bigger deserts is a good thing.

I guess you have not tried to actually grow squash. You will have squash borers before you pick anything. Better a low persistence pesticide like Sevin applied according to label instructions than not to grow anything.

J.M.

I can’t imagine. Squash is about the easiest of all garden stuff to grow here without pesticides.

I went through all the very difficult and complicated, slow and expensive approvals to get a farm certified organic. I am dropping the certification before one crop is harvested because the financials just didn’t make sense for us.

Here, you can get away with it for a year, and only get the borers in August. Second year, they will eat you up by mid July. Rotation would help, but I live in a small suburban yard. Even switching them to the far side of the property does not help. I get by with two applications of sevein.

I wish I did not need to use the stuff, but I have little choice.