I think the difference is as indicated there, slight or subtle it may be. Compare the #1's. There is nothing especially religious or holy listed about electing in its definition. Ordinations, as we practice them, are lifetime appointments. Voted offices tend to come with term limits.mike wrote:What in your opinion is the difference?RZehr wrote:I'm for ordinations, not elections.
or·dain
1.make (someone) a priest or minister; confer holy orders on.
synonyms: confer holy orders on, appoint, anoint, consecrate, install, invest, induct
"the Church voted to ordain women"
2.order or decree (something) officially.
"equal punishment was ordained for the two crimes"
synonyms: decree, rule, order, command, enjoin, lay/set down, establish, dictate, legislate, prescribe, pronounce
"she ordained that anyone found hunting in the forest must pay a fine"e·lect
1.choose (someone) to hold public office or some other position by voting.
"the members who were elected to the committee"
synonyms: vote for, vote in, return, cast one's vote for; choose, pick, select
"a new president was elected"
Church leadership: term limits
Re: Church leadership: term limits
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Re: Church leadership: term limits
No problem. I have wondered myself what difference there is between "ordaining" somebody and simply choosing them. Typically I think "ordain" carries the "holy orders" the the dictionary definition indicates. Is that holy aura really something biblical, or is it a significance that we have added to the term? Sort of like some Plain people have done with a wooden pulpit, referring to it as a "sacred desk" or some such term, and reserving its use for "ordained" men only. A lower pulpit or stand is used by non-ordained in a lot of conservative Mennonites such as EPMC.
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Remember the prisoners, as though you were in prison with them, and the mistreated, as though you yourselves were suffering bodily. -Heb. 13:3
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Re: Church leadership: term limits
Indeed, I don't see much in the New Testament implying that the selection of deacons and bishops was something that either was inspired by God any more than any other decision a group of believers makes, nor that once ordained, a leader has a special endorsement from God any more than any other leader in natural authority (as outlined in Romans 13 or the last chapter of Hebrews).mike wrote:No problem. I have wondered myself what difference there is between "ordaining" somebody and simply choosing them. Typically I think "ordain" carries the "holy orders" the the dictionary definition indicates. Is that holy aura really something biblical, or is it a significance that we have added to the term? Sort of like some Plain people have done with a wooden pulpit, referring to it as a "sacred desk" or some such term, and reserving its use for "ordained" men only. A lower pulpit or stand is used by non-ordained in a lot of conservative Mennonites such as EPMC.
I do find the raised pulpit thing to a bit much pomp and circumstance, and can understand the mindset of some in the past who sought to have divisions over such things. It seems to be an importation from other church traditions that were much more High Church in their view of both the order of worship and the distinction between clergy and laity than Anabaptists historically were.
Somewhat related to this would be the expectation in Mennonite circles that ordained men dress differently than laity do.
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Re: Church leadership: term limits
I would compare how we ordain ministers similar to how Supreme Court justices are appointed, versus how, for example, Senators are elected.RZehr wrote:I'm not against a retirement age, or an age where they are no longer taking the lead on decisions. I'm for that. But I don't think I would be comfortable with a system where 35 year olds get elected for 5 years or so, and then have reelection. I'm for ordinations, not elections.
If, with termed pastors, you end up with a pastors parish or eldership board, then that power/control/dictatorship may only be transferred instead of eliminated.
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- gcdonner
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Re: Church leadership: term limits
Ordination has generally been considered for life, whether or not the person continues to hold an office. whereas elections assume term limits and the need to be voted on, again and again.mike wrote:What in your opinion is the difference?RZehr wrote:I'm for ordinations, not elections.
or·dain
1.make (someone) a priest or minister; confer holy orders on.
synonyms: confer holy orders on, appoint, anoint, consecrate, install, invest, induct
"the Church voted to ordain women"
2.order or decree (something) officially.
"equal punishment was ordained for the two crimes"
synonyms: decree, rule, order, command, enjoin, lay/set down, establish, dictate, legislate, prescribe, pronounce
"she ordained that anyone found hunting in the forest must pay a fine"e·lect
1.choose (someone) to hold public office or some other position by voting.
"the members who were elected to the committee"
synonyms: vote for, vote in, return, cast one's vote for; choose, pick, select
"a new president was elected"
It should be noted that there are pitfalls in either application, whether with or without term limits. I guess the best way to determine how to do it in a particular fellowship is with a brotherhood consensus. I have been impressed with a working brotherhood, and depressed when they are not listened to, by "leadership". IMO, a brotherhood should make all major decisions with the responsibility of carrying them out given to the delegated pastor-deacon-elder, as servants of the Body.
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Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed
rightly dividing the word of truth.
rightly dividing the word of truth.
Re: Church leadership: term limits
Whether the appointment is for life or not, how are the candidates for ordination selected? Election may still be used. Even in the event of use of the lot are not the candidates selected by some sense of the voice of the congregation? More to the point is what system of accountability is in effect after installation in a particular office? Review by peers alone, in other words, fellow members of leadership, is akin to a government agency investigating itself; there is strong bias toward a finding of probity among those like yourself, in this case other ordained individuals. We ignorant uncivilized savages in the pews may see things quite differently, but absent a systematic congregational review of credentials that actually means something, pretty much the most one can do is fume privately. Or leave. There ought be another choice. A recognition of human frailty demands it. It seems only a leader bereft of Christian humility would resist it.
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Re: Church leadership: term limits
Agree that we don't have good "process" to remove unqualified preachers. Is unqualified preachers so prevalent that we need a process or term limits? If they are, then there may be another segment of our system that needs looked at. I think it speaks well of our churches if it is rare enough not to need a streamline process.
We don't have term limits, yet we have managed to remove preachers. It's not really a unqualified lifetime appointment.
We don't have term limits, yet we have managed to remove preachers. It's not really a unqualified lifetime appointment.
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Re: Church leadership: term limits
At least in moderate-conservative circles, there isn't a good process for disicipline / removal of problematic leaders because this doesn't happen for any member in general, and when it does, it is a very, very slow process.RZehr wrote:Agree that we don't have good "process" to remove unqualified preachers. Is unqualified preachers so prevalent that we need a process or term limits? If they are, then there may be another segment of our system that needs looked at. I think it speaks well of our churches if it is rare enough not to need a streamline process.
We don't have term limits, yet we have managed to remove preachers. It's not really a unqualified lifetime appointment.
I think the original confessions were on to something when they describe the ban as a real and serious thing and supported by scripture.
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- gcdonner
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Re: Church leadership: term limits
I was not amongst the leadership in the church I was referring to, but only a part of the brotherhood... I have been in leadership in other places, where there wasn't an issue, since the leaders were not "above" those in the pews and we shared responsibilities together. That is real "plural" ministry. When preachers start using the pulpit as a whipping post it is time for them to step down, IMO.Gene wrote:Whether the appointment is for life or not, how are the candidates for ordination selected? Election may still be used. Even in the event of use of the lot are not the candidates selected by some sense of the voice of the congregation? More to the point is what system of accountability is in effect after installation in a particular office? Review by peers alone, in other words, fellow members of leadership, is akin to a government agency investigating itself; there is strong bias toward a finding of probity among those like yourself, in this case other ordained individuals. We ignorant uncivilized savages in the pews may see things quite differently, but absent a systematic congregational review of credentials that actually means something, pretty much the most one can do is fume privately. Or leave. There ought be another choice. A recognition of human frailty demands it. It seems only a leader bereft of Christian humility would resist it.
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Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed
rightly dividing the word of truth.
rightly dividing the word of truth.
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Re: Church leadership: term limits
gcdonner wrote:I was not amongst the leadership in the church I was referring to, but only a part of the brotherhood... I have been in leadership in other places, where there wasn't an issue, since the leaders were not "above" those in the pews and we shared responsibilities together. That is real "plural" ministry. When preachers start using the pulpit as a whipping post it is time for them to step down, IMO.Gene wrote:Whether the appointment is for life or not, how are the candidates for ordination selected? Election may still be used. Even in the event of use of the lot are not the candidates selected by some sense of the voice of the congregation? More to the point is what system of accountability is in effect after installation in a particular office? Review by peers alone, in other words, fellow members of leadership, is akin to a government agency investigating itself; there is strong bias toward a finding of probity among those like yourself, in this case other ordained individuals. We ignorant uncivilized savages in the pews may see things quite differently, but absent a systematic congregational review of credentials that actually means something, pretty much the most one can do is fume privately. Or leave. There ought be another choice. A recognition of human frailty demands it. It seems only a leader bereft of Christian humility would resist it.
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