Racial-ethnic groups within the Church

[temporal1]

Solving racism is like saying solving greed, or lust, or avarice...or any other vice. It will never be put fully to rest. Just like all kids say "mine" instinctively. We need to constantly address, confront, and teach against it at the individual and social level.

when i was very young, esp in the turmoil of the 1960’s, i would “talk to God,” and ask “why?” did He create people of different skin colors, it didn’t make sense to me, it caused so much strife.

eventually, i realized, not all countries were the melting pot of my personal experience, but, guess what?
people always manage to find some unwanted or intolerable difference - no matter how homogenous-appearing the group.
for instance, the continent of Africa, South America, Western Europe, etc., people can always find something and they often do.
they fight and often enslave one another.

the U.S. now has a self-inflicted challenge since enshrining racism in government, including many rewards for identified victims.
this well-intended interference totally skews any hope of resolution.

rewarding victims guarantees competition for those rewards. good intentions backfiring.
people compete to be legally IDENTIFIED victims. reality is relative. “whatever you can get away with.”

as things have unfolded in the decades since the 60’s, there appears to be no change on the horizon,
outside creating and expanding the victim mentality - because that’s where the money+power are.

when we see (for instance, black people) excel and be perfectly happy (there are many) they are quickly schooled to never give up their victim card, no matter what. those who do refuse it are criticized, ignored, minimized, i’m sure it’s a tough path. i venture to guess, the mental fortitude it would take to be a black person and not buy into “the narrative” would be great. these folks may be among the “most oppressed,” by their very own black community! no one bats an eye.

i do wonder how the world would look today, if MLK Jr had led his flock to Jesus Christ, and not to political activism?
i have NO doubt things were in process of change. none at all. what if God’s way had been tried?

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting:
it has been found difficult and not tried.
Gilbert K. Chesterton

i venture to guess, if MLK Jr were alive today, he would want a do over.

- - - - - - -

Melinda Gates
as an extreme example of how embedded victim mentality has become in our culture, a few weeks ago, i saw some internet reports+chatter about beyond-wealthy Melinda Gates claiming to be a victim of Bill Gates .. (choice of friends, Epstein??)

bar none, presenting as being a hapless victim is key to social acceptance.

[GaryK]

I am fine with your language. I am also fine with saying we want safe spaces for everyone. That is what I want EMS to be. It is not just self centered improvement but actually caring for other people and their wellbeing. The lack of appropriate communication stems from a lack of empathy...or plainly, love.

FWIW - it isn't relegated to construction crews. Here at EMS we have dealt with semi-routinely, racial comments made by students from your conference (as well as others) that are mostly ignorance and not malicious, but still racist and hurtful, and keeps school from being safe for some. In the past 4-5 years on multiple occasions with different students and their parents I have confronted race/immigrant based jokes, Asian eyes jokes ethnic based jokes, comments made more than once, to people of color - usually adopted students - like 'your my slave" etc. In other cases a comment on buses to a student of color that "black lives don't matter" when driving by BLM signs. These are of course by children and youths and I expect no less. Racism is an inherent part of the sinful human propensity toward partiality and tribalism. It manifests itself individually and with culture...with in groups. And children pick up attitudes around them as well toward immigrants, BLM, etc.

To solve this we have educational/discipleship conversations about what race means in America...we often talk through Ruby Bridges, the 16th street bombing and the siblings that are still alive bearing sensitivity, discipling for humility that we don't actually know what it is like to be a person of color in America. etc. The goal is real empathy, humility, and a seeing all as image bearers of God.

We have real work to do around seeing all people as image bearers of God and loving them like we do ourselves and wanting for them (including at the border) what we would want for ourselves. So Mr. Guyton's work I think is really appropriate and whether it is called making safe spaces or keeping our conduct holy is really a red herring.

I am not sure that it is. We are commanded to be holy in our conduct both as individuals and as a corporate body of believers. There's no such biblical injunction towards safety or inclusivity, which are thoroughly modern, academic terms in the sense that they are intentionally freighted with layered meaning bent towards a particular and often political agenda. Holiness is a striving towards Christ-likeness; safetyism and DEI are not. I'd argue that holiness, calling Christians to Christ-likeness, gets us closer to racial harmony or a deconstruction of racial barriers (in the Church) far better than implementations of academic and sociological constructions that are built not on an understanding of Christ as the great Unifier, Universal or common Rock but rather built on assumptions of unbridgeable difference, identity-group consciousness and an oppressor/oppressed dialectic.

Because I don't bother with the politics, I am unafraid to take the words at face value. So making a community feel safe for people is an idea I have no issues with and I will refrain from reading in political "intentions."

As for the word holiness, it really is derived from the idea of "wholeness." We often associate purely with religious/mystical meanings. I am for wholeness and being conformed to the image of Christ. Not merely as a self improvement, individualistic self betterment program, but as a response to empathetic love for others.

I think we should all be able to agree that the conditions I documented and have observed through low inference evidence create an unsafe environment for some people. And demonstrate a lack of empathetic love that follows the teachings of Jesus in the Golden Rule. All the rest is pure politics. And people feel it so strongly that on this very page people who don't even know Mr. Guyton are willing to use "golden calf" metaphors to put down his efforts to live out teachings of Jesus. That is where the issue lies.

In the context of racial issues, do you ever promote the idea of suffering love to those being oppressed? It seems in previous discussions and here as well, that you advocate for safe environments, but is that what Jesus advocated for?

[Ken]

When talking about racism, one needs to be specific about what one means.

According to Merriam-Websters: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

Definition of racism

1: a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2 a: the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another

2 b: a political or social system founded on racism and designed to execute its principles

It is important to distinguish racism from hate. They are not the same thing at all. One can be both racist and hateful, one can be racist without being hateful, and one can hate without being racist. I will leave it to others to argue which of these the Bible is silent about.

This would be an example of hateful racism. Much of neo-Nazi ideology is built around hatred as much as racism



This would be an example of racism without hatred. In the 19th Century there were many liberal do-gooders and missionaries who devoted themselves to "educating" American Indians by which they meant purging them of their native culture and turning them into white people. Even kidnapping Indian children from their families and extinguishing their language and customs. It was an ideology premised on the superiority of white culture but the people who devoted their lives to this work weren't hateful towards Indians They just had racist beliefs.



These would be examples of hatred without racism. Jewish holocaust victims no doubt had justifiable hatred for the Nazis and German people who persecuted them. You can see the fear and hatred in their eyes. But there was no accompanying ideology of racial superiority or belief that Jews were superior to Germans. They just hated and feared the Germans for what they were doing.



Likewise, I expect these people had no great love for the white folks who kept them in bondage. And may well have hated them. But there was no accompanying black or African American ideology of racial superiority.



And here you have it all in one picture. The black girl going to school after the desegregation court order in Arkansas surrounded by hateful and racist white people.

[joshuabgood]

In the context of racial issues, do you ever promote the idea of suffering love to those being oppressed? It seems in previous discussions and here as well, that you advocate for safe environments, but is that what Jesus advocated for?

Yes.

And Yes. Jesus cared about people and by his witness, never told black jokes or women jokes.

So I don't see an issue with prophetically speaking against racism/sexism and speaking for making safe spaces for people, while simultaneously preaching and living the message of suffering love.

[joshuabgood]

I feel like difference is, when I have these conversations they aren't, for me, hypothetical philosophical arguments. They involve real people.

I know the adopted children of color that have been told black lives don't matter - or been exposed to black jokes. I know the children that have told "you are my slave." I have witnessed their pain at being an "other." I have sat with them. School has been unsafe for them.

Same with the girls. I have seen the pain in young adolescent girls that have had their sexuality mocked or made fun of. I have seen the hurt as they are mocked purely because of their gender/genitals. I have sat with them and their parents. School has at times felt very unsafe for them.

These are real conversations with real people. Safe spaces at schools and jobs matter. Jesus cares. It isn't hypothetical.

[GaryK]

In the context of racial issues, do you ever promote the idea of suffering love to those being oppressed? It seems in previous discussions and here as well, that you advocate for safe environments, but is that what Jesus advocated for?

Yes.

And Yes. Jesus cared about people and by his witness, never told black jokes or women jokes.

So I don't see an issue with prophetically speaking against racism/sexism and speaking for making safe spaces for people, while simultaneously preaching and living the message of suffering love.

I agree that Jesus never told black jokes or women jokes.

But in the passage where Jesus spoke about loving those who say evil things and do evil things against His followers He does not advocate for a safe environment. He's basically saying those things will happen and when they do happen, He teaches how to respond. You seem to be suggesting that by Jesus caring about people, He was somehow advocating for safe environments for them. Can you give examples of Jesus advocating for safe environments for people?

[GaryK]

I feel like difference is, when I have these conversations they aren't, for me, hypothetical philosophical arguments. They involve real people.

I know the adopted children of color that have been told black lives don't matter - or been exposed to black jokes. I know the children that have told "you are my slave." I have witnessed their pain at being an "other." I have sat with them. School has been unsafe for them.

Same with the girls. I have seen the pain in young adolescent girls that have had their sexuality mocked or made fun of. I have seen the hurt as they are mocked purely because of their gender/genitals. I have sat with them and their parents. School has at times felt very unsafe for them.

These are real conversations with real people. Safe spaces at schools and jobs matter. Jesus cares. It isn't hypothetical.

What do you think Jesus would tell these children of color and girls if He would sit with them and you in these conversations? This may seem like a hypothetical question, but in a real sense, it's not, because we know what He did say about using suffering love to overcome evil. I really don't think He would tell them that we need to create a safe environment for them. I'm pretty sure He would tell them to be examples of suffering love in these evil days.

[Ken]

Can you give examples of Jesus advocating for safe environments for people?

Luke 10:25-37

[GaryK]

Can you give examples of Jesus advocating for safe environments for people?

Luke 10:25-37

How is the parable of the good Samaritan an example of Jesus advocating for safe environments for people?

[ohio jones]

Can you give examples of Jesus advocating for safe environments for people?

Luke 10:25-37

The safe environment (the inn) is mentioned only incidentally; the more important part is the compassion and care provided to the needy man.