Contraceptive

[Grace]

If God intended for people to have sex without the possibility of children, he would have designed our bodies that way. He didn’t. The modern culture is full of lies such as that sex is something you should do for your own pleasure. It isn’t.

Not 100% true. God designed the woman's body that after a certain age she can no longer bear children. From what I understand sex for post menopausal women still continues.

[Josh]

If God intended for people to have sex without the possibility of children, he would have designed our bodies that way. He didn’t. The modern culture is full of lies such as that sex is something you should do for your own pleasure. It isn’t.

Not 100% true. God designed the woman's body that after a certain age she can no longer bear children. From what I understand sex for post menopausal women still continues.

God didn't design young couples to delay childbearing for 2-5 years. The fact that eventually we get old is a very different topic. Some people are barren, etc., but overall, God's design is that young people have children if they decide to engage in sexual activity.

[nett]

If God intended for people to have sex without the possibility of children, he would have designed our bodies that way. He didn’t. The modern culture is full of lies such as that sex is something you should do for your own pleasure. It isn’t.

Not 100% true. God designed the woman's body that after a certain age she can no longer bear children. From what I understand sex for post menopausal women still continues.

Yeah, and I would say at that point, the telos switches purpose, quite meaningfully. All in God's design.

[nett]

I don't have an ethical issue with either, because they do not terminate a human life. However, it is a momentous decision and other factors enter in, such as what the reasons are for wanting to prevent pregnancy. Many years ago I remember my dad helping a family financially who wanted to reverse such a surgery so they could have more children.

This enters into the topic of why people are so determined to prevent having children. It is a topic that is not often addressed, and I think it matters for Christians. We live in the most prosperous society in history with better healthcare and more conveniences and luxuries than anyone else in history, broadly speaking, yet as a society we are having fewer and fewer children. Christians included. Yes, there are always the individual health stories and financial stories, but I am not talking about individual families so much as society broadly. It is a question that I have found interesting for many years.

I find the practice of birth control for the first 2-5 years of a married couple’s life particularly abhorrent. There is no ethical or practical reason to do this. If God intended for marriage to work this way, he would have made it work this way.

People are also very determined to have children - when they want to. They will spend $100,000s on IUI, IVF, surrogates, fertility treatment, and (eventually) attempting to adopt a newborn. It betrays a lack of trust in the sovereignty of God. Mankind now thinks that he opens and closes the womb, despite the Old Testament being rather clear it is a divine decision.

Marriages are weaker than they ever were before; mental health amongst women has also not improved amongst women compared to 100 years ago. God has a plan for people who don’t want to have children: “To the unmarried I say, it is better to remain even as I.” Modern man lacks the sacredness of the celibate vocation even as he profanes the married vocation and turns it in something akin to harlotry and sodomy.

This new article by Marc Barnes ("A Conservative Dilemma") is relevant and quite good:

The non-binary child is taking testosterone pills to grow a beard, and his mother, who can’t believe it, is taking estrogen pills to avoid pregnancy, and if they are not talking to each other, they might ask Francis Bacon or John Locke to serve as a go-between—for both mother and child are liberals, at war with the body as a surprising, unanticipatable given that must be coerced, through technology, into conformity with the rational, self-interested plan of the sovereign self, always floating above and beyond whatever meanings might be apparent in the flesh.

Everyone should ready this article, and https://newpolity.com/and-another-thing ... traception

I am increasingly tending towards the belief that all forms of birth control are wrong, other than abstinence. NFP / the Rhythm method would fall under abstinence in my opinion. And I would take no issue with people attempting those methods. Considering it requires abstinence at the least "fun" time, it's a challenge.

There are a lot of aspects of industrial society that have caused issue with fertility. I think a major concern would be not breastfeeding children longer. Breastfeeding is almost as effective as barrier birth control (I know it's not perfect, so please don't pillory me with yours stories of "I know so-and-so who got pregnant while breastfeeding). Sedentary lifestyles are another factor.

Considering children anything but a blessing really makes me sad. At almost no point in history would a sane person have wanted to delay or completely avoid having children like our society does.

[nett]

If God intended for people to have sex without the possibility of children, he would have designed our bodies that way. He didn’t. The modern culture is full of lies such as that sex is something you should do for your own pleasure. It isn’t.

Not 100% true. God designed the woman's body that after a certain age she can no longer bear children. From what I understand sex for post menopausal women still continues.

God didn't design young couples to delay childbearing for 2-5 years. The fact that eventually we get old is a very different topic. Some people are barren, etc., but overall, God's design is that young people have children if they decide to engage in sexual activity.

This is the crux of the issue. If you believe birth control is a good idea, you have to make the case that God made a mistake in his design of sexuality, and that we can fix it.

This is not even mentioning the horrifying health effects that almost all forms of birth control have.

[nett]

I was shocked to learn how many men in conservative settings opt to get snipped. Now if woman's health is in danger, I can understand the procedure. I know of several situations where a couple had one child and were told she couldn't conceive any more. Ten years later... surprise

Maybe if his wife's health is in danger, a husband should have some other priorities....

I find the epidemic of men getting snipped quite alarming. I think it's deeply psychologically harmful for a man, and for his wife.

[Neto]

I think that God's main purpose for intimacy in marriage was/is to bind a man & a woman together spiritually and emotionally, to make them into husband and wife - in his own words, to make them one. That is the basis for a family. (Science has somewhat to say about how intimacy chemically helps create this mutual dedication or deep connection as well.) I also think that the symbolic use of marriage in the relationship between God and humankind we find in the Scriptures is built on that resulting oneness more than it is a figure or illustration of child bearing. In fact, in one sense I am surprised that God has not made marriage an eternally binding union, and that he approves of remarriage under any circumstance at all, including after the death of a spouse. What I mean is that marriage is so heavily symbolic of the care of God for his people that it is a bit of a shock that it is not something that will continue in the afterlife.

[Ken]

Not 100% true. God designed the woman's body that after a certain age she can no longer bear children. From what I understand sex for post menopausal women still continues.

God didn't design young couples to delay childbearing for 2-5 years. The fact that eventually we get old is a very different topic. Some people are barren, etc., but overall, God's design is that young people have children if they decide to engage in sexual activity.

This is the crux of the issue. If you believe birth control is a good idea, you have to make the case that God made a mistake in his design of sexuality, and that we can fix it.

This is not even mentioning the horrifying health effects that almost all forms of birth control have.

Is this an actual theological argument made by conservative Anabaptists? It seems nonsensical. You could say the same thing about any human activity.

If God had intended us not to be naked he would have given us clothes.
If God had intended to eat cooked food he would have designed nature to provide us with it rather than forcing us to cook our food.
If God had intended us to read and write he would have given us books, pens, paper, and printing presses.
If God had intended us to fly he would have given us wings.
If God had intended us to dive he would have given us gills.
If God had intended us to drive he would have given us cars.
If God had intended us to use domesticated animals he would have given them to us rather than forcing us to develop them through selective breeding.
If God had intended us to eat wheat, corn, or rice, he would have provide them in nature rather than requiring humans to develop those crops through centuries of selective breeding.

And so forth...

Or maybe God gave us brains to figure these things out for ourselves. Including family planning.

[nett]

God didn't design young couples to delay childbearing for 2-5 years. The fact that eventually we get old is a very different topic. Some people are barren, etc., but overall, God's design is that young people have children if they decide to engage in sexual activity.

This is the crux of the issue. If you believe birth control is a good idea, you have to make the case that God made a mistake in his design of sexuality, and that we can fix it.

This is not even mentioning the horrifying health effects that almost all forms of birth control have.

Is this an actual theological argument made by conservative Anabaptists? It seems nonsensical. You could say the same thing about any human activity.

If God had intended us not to be naked he would have given us clothes.
If God had intended to eat cooked food he would have designed nature to provide us with it rather than forcing us to cook our food.
If God had intended us to read and write he would have given us books, pens, paper, and printing presses.
If God had intended us to fly he would have given us wings.
If God had intended us to dive he would have given us gills.
If God had intended us to drive he would have given us cars.
If God had intended us to use domesticated animals he would have given them to us rather than forcing us to develop them through selective breeding.
If God had intended us to eat wheat, corn, or rice, he would have provide them in nature rather than requiring humans to develop those crops through centuries of selective breeding.

And so forth...

Or maybe God gave us brains to figure these things out for ourselves. Including family planning.

No, this is the argument made by the catholic church, which has significantly more intellectual horsepower behind it than...any other philosophical movement on the planet.

Your are all nonsensical and tired, but I wouldn't have expected you to understand what I was saying.

I think everyone on the board is aware that you are in love with all forms of human "progress"

[Grace]

I think everyone on the board is aware that you are in love with all forms of human "progress"

Wait....wouldn't having less children be "retrogression", and not "progress".