LGBT and Christian Persecution

[Ken]

Some of what bootstrap says here resonate with me.

Where do empathy and moral judgment play in here? As a Christian, there must be a way of calling out aggression and warmongering (like the invasion of a neighboring country and the wanton destruction of innocent lives and property) without being drawn into overcoming evil with evil. Jesus does that when he called out those who oppress and exploit...he did so without leading a proletariate revolution (something I believe he would have been socially pressured to do). Instead, he responded to the evil he faced by calling people to face down wrong through the radically disruptive path of love and non-resistance. Aloofness to avoid entanglement seems like the sin of the Priest and the Levite in the parable of the good samaritan. Recognizing the aggression of Vladimir Putin's armies does not necessarily mean support for Vlodemre Salinski's military response.

A person hoping to stop a fight by calling out a mugger's brutality doesn't feel the same as "picking sides" in a street fight of co-belligerants.

My primary objection to a lot of culture war moralizing and legislating from the Christian right is that it is so selectively narrow and seems focused on enflaming prejudice for political gain rather than love. For example, we have people here on this very forum cheering Russia's invasion on the grounds of gay marriage. Really? Does God really want whole cities to be leveled and thousands killed because of gay marriage?

I expect that is why so many people are dismissive of conservative Christianity as being steeped in prejudice. Because that it how it comes across when 95% of the message is on fringe topics like LGBT rights that are intended to inflame prejudice for political gain and virtually none of the message is on larger themes far more central to Christianity like love, peacemaking, poverty and wealth, healing the sick, and so forth.

[Dan Z]

Some of what bootstrap says here resonate with me.

Where do empathy and moral judgment play in here? As a Christian, there must be a way of calling out aggression and warmongering (like the invasion of a neighboring country and the wanton destruction of innocent lives and property) without being drawn into overcoming evil with evil. Jesus does that when he called out those who oppress and exploit...he did so without leading a proletariate revolution (something I believe he would have been socially pressured to do). Instead, he responded to the evil he faced by calling people to face down wrong through the radically disruptive path of love and non-resistance. Aloofness to avoid entanglement seems like the sin of the Priest and the Levite in the parable of the good Samaritan.

A person hoping to stop a fight by calling out a mugger's brutality doesn't feel the same as "picking sides" in a street fight of co-belligerents.

At the same time, cheering on as the West pours weaponry into Ukraine would be like handing the mugging victim a gun to "settle the score."

The Christian response in all of this is the response of the Samaritan - to practice empathy, bind wounds, and minister hope and healing to the oppressed. Blessed are the peacemakers!

Oops - sorry, I thought I was in the other thread. Was not meaning this post this as a comment on this LGBT topic. Carry on,

[GaryK]

Some of what bootstrap says here resonates with me.

Where do empathy and moral judgment play in here? As a Christian, there must be a way of calling out aggression and warmongering (like the invasion of a neighboring country and the wanton destruction of innocent lives and property) without being drawn into overcoming evil with evil. Jesus does that when he called out those who oppress and exploit...he did so without leading a proletariate revolution (something I believe he would have been socially pressured to do). Instead, he responded to the evil he faced by calling people to face down wrong through the radically disruptive path of love and non-resistance. Aloofness to avoid entanglement seems like the sin of the Priest and the Levite in the parable of the good Samaritan.

A person hoping to stop a fight by calling out a mugger's brutality doesn't feel like the same situation as "picking sides" in a street fight of co-belligerents.

At the same time, cheering on as the West pours weaponry into Ukraine would be like handing the mugging victim a gun to "settle the score."

The Christian response in all of this is the response of the Samaritan - to practice empathy, bind wounds, and minister hope and healing to the oppressed. Blessed are the peacemakers!

If I'm understanding correctly, you are probably referencing Jesus speaking to the religious Jewish leaders. I see that differently than speaking to political systems like Ukraine and Russia.

If I had a chance to talk with Putin or Zelensky or any of the individual soldiers involved in the war, I would tell them they are in the wrong kingdom and point out the differences in the 2 kingdoms. Their kingdoms are full of turmoil and fighting and the other is a Kingdom of suffering love where peace is taught and this Kingdom is led by Jesus. I would invite them to become of part of the Kingdom of suffering love and peace.

I would not attempt to tell them how they should run their kingdoms because I don't know for what purpose God has set up their particular kingdoms. I also don't know the mind of God on this war and I'm doubtful anyone does. I keep thinking about the time Jesus said "If My Kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here." Isn't Jesus implying that it is expected that earthly kingdoms and their rulers will fight and use coercion to accomplish their goals? Fighting and coercion always have and always will cause suffering and exploitation.

If NT KOG ethics and principles are what is behind a Christian calling out aggression and warmongering by the aggressor country, wouldn't those same ethics and principles prompt the Christian to also call on the country being oppressed and exploited to overcome evil with good and not fight back. If not, why not? I don't hear any of that kind of response being promoted here and to me that seems inconsistent. It also feels like promoting one and not the other is like saying God has taken a side in this war and is giving Ukraine an exemption from these Kingdom ethics and principles because they are the ones being wronged.

So, to me, Christians not calling out horrible things political systems do, doesn't feel like a matter of aloofness and not caring about those being exploited. I really do care. (Our church recently sent a love offering to a brother in Poland to help with the refugee crisis.) To me it feels like a matter of accepting the reality, as it seems Jesus did, that worldly political systems use fighting and coercion to accomplish their goals. And the reality of it happening in this Russia/Ukraine war really should be another strong wake up call to the church to get as many people out of worldly kingdoms into the NT KOG as we can.

[barnhart]

Gary, how about condeming war and war makers because it hurts people, breaks things and damages good things God has made.

[GaryK]

I don't know that God has "favorite political systems", but I do think the Bible speaks out against injustice and oppression and tells us to care for refugees and those who are in need. I think God does care about things like wars, concentration camps, Gulags, torture, rape, etc. And I think that means the Kingdom of God sometimes does need to speak to what That Other Kingdom is doing. Not because we love one political side more than the other or one political figure more than another, but because God cares about people who are being harmed.

You seem to be focusing a lot of attention on what Russia is doing that is morally wrong, which is clearly taking a side.

How can we speak against any kind of morality or injustice without speaking about specific things that specific people or countries are doing? If you see that as "taking sides", where does the Bible condemn those who side against what is wrong?

And aren't we also taking sides if we say it's no big deal for Russia to invade Ukraine, that Russia should not be criticized, etc?

You seem convinced that God is on the side of Ukraine in this war and therefore His children need to speak out against it, but here's a question - what is the morally right thing for Ukraine to do in this war?

Those are words I would not use. I never say God is on the side of a particular country in a war. But I do speak plainly about some kinds of blatant wrongdoing. Invading a country that is not threatening your country and inflicting massive bloodshed, especially in civilian areas ... that seems like a clear case to me.

I don't know what to tell the government of Ukraine to do, or the governments of Europe. I can't tell people how to handle themselves in war. I can only pray for victims and help refugees, speak out against injustice, etc. Even though I wouldn't know what to tell the Jews to do under HItler, I think Hitler was doing terrible things. Even though I wouldn't know what to tell the victims of Mao's cultural revolution or Stalin's Holodomor, I think Mao and Stalin were doing terrible things. Even though I have no idea what to tell the victims of the modern Syrian regime, I think terrible things have been done to them. Is that taking sides? Is there something wrong with that? Do I need to have an answer for the victims or know what they should do to speak out against this kind of wrongdoing?

If the KOG needs to speak to what That Other Kingdom (Russia) is doing wrong it also needs to speak to what That Other Kingdom (Ukraine) needs to do right in this case. Is Ukraine loving its enemy? Is it returning good for evil? Is it following the teachings of Jesus? Or does morality address only what is wrong in worldly political systems?

If governments have Romans 13 authority at all, I would think defending their citizens against attack would be part of that authority. If Caesar "bears the sword", then Caesar is doing something that you and I cannot as members of the Kingdom of God. And yet, Romans 13 describes Caesar as "God's servant" in bearing the sword.

But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

But surely Caesar is also accountable to God. Surely the way that Caesar wields the sword matters. And how can we possibly speak out against war if we cannot speak out against military invasions and bombing cities?

These are the types of questions I think of when I say it's next to impossible to try and project morality and NT KOG perspectives into anything involving worldly political systems. Political systems will do what political systems do and always have done. Our calling as citizens in the Kingdom of Jesus is to call individuals within those political systems to the way of Jesus, not try to change the systems into the way of Jesus, because that's impossible.

I agree with that last sentence - the most important task for the Kingdom of God is to be the Kingdom of God. But to me, morality, justice, love, and service are very important parts of being the Kingdom of God. Hungering and thirsting for righteousness. Grieving and mourning. Caring for the victims.

If we are not going to "project morality and NT KOG perspectives" into these questions, why are we discussing them at all?

See my response to DanZ except for a few points.

You have been the one exhorting MN not to take sides in political matters, not to call the other side bad, etc. That is the reason for my bringing up sides in this and other political issues you discuss.

If you know what to say to Putin, Mao, Hitler, Stalin and others based on morality and NT KOG perspectives, why don't you know what to say to their victims based on morality and NT KOG perspectives?

On your last question about not projecting morality and NT KOG perspectives - note that I said "into anything involving worldly political systems". I'm not clear what you mean by "into these questions". The point is that worldly political systems, in general, are not grounded in morality and NT KOG perspectives and to expect them to abide by them is useless, IMO.

[GaryK]

Gary, how about condeming war and war makers because it hurts people, breaks things and damages good things God has made.

I don't condemn what political systems do because I believe God has set them up for a purpose. I don't claim to know what all those purposes are. Humanity choosing to sin is why I believe God sets up these systems. What goes on within these systems and how to deal with them, I trust God to work out in the end. I think it is abundantly clear what followers of Jesus' calling is within our kingdom and it doesn't involve worldly political matters.

That's not to say that I don't wish things were different during times of war and that I don't care about the effects of war. Is that being inconsistent?

[temporal1]

GaryK:
.. The point is that worldly political systems, in general, are not grounded in morality and NT KOG perspectives and to expect them to abide by them is useless, IMO.

It certainly becomes confusing, to say the least.

One of the most confusing (and eventually destructive) outcomes is organizing political blocs for the purpose of political power, special legal protections, and access to the public treasury - as-if by Jesus’ instruction and approval.

i don’t find the most remote suggestion by Jesus to do this, “organize to overcome.” this is a very secular human construct.
it all began with “good human reasoning intentions.” but, now.

God is patient. Wanting ALL to come to Him. 2 Peter 3:9

[barnhart]

I don't condemn what political systems do because I believe God has set them up for a purpose. I don't claim to know what all those purposes are. Humanity choosing to sin is why I believe God sets up these systems. What goes on within these systems and how to deal with them, I trust God to work out in the end. I think it is abundantly clear what followers of Jesus' calling is within our kingdom and it doesn't involve worldly political matters.

I am with you except for the first half of the first sentence. I have no conviction against calling out evil and asking for it to stop.

[GaryK]

I don't condemn what political systems do because I believe God has set them up for a purpose. I don't claim to know what all those purposes are. Humanity choosing to sin is why I believe God sets up these systems. What goes on within these systems and how to deal with them, I trust God to work out in the end. I think it is abundantly clear what followers of Jesus' calling is within our kingdom and it doesn't involve worldly political matters.

I am with you except for the first half of the first sentence. I have no conviction against calling out evil and asking for it to stop.

I'm just trying to figure out where the logical end of non-resistance of evil and non-involvement in politics is for the Kingdom Christian.

How does one go about calling out evil in a political system that is much greater than an individual person? What good does it do for Russia, Ukraine or the NT KOG for Christians to call out what Russia is doing in Ukraine? Zelensky has been making statements all along calling out the USA, NATO and the EU for not doing more to actually help stop the war. I suppose he would have some things to say as well to those Christians who stop at calling out the evil of the Russian political system. Should we participate in organized war protests? At what point would it cross the line for you? At what point does non-resistance of evil cease being non-resistance of evil? Should Christians call for Ukraine to do the the good thing by not resisting the evil being done to them, by returning good for evil and by stopping fighting back as they are? After all, the human suffering and destruction of property would have probably been much less if Ukraine would have immediately surrendered when Russia first started invading. So if stopping human suffering is behind calling out the evil Russia is doing, why not call for Ukraine to surrender? For some reason no one seems to want to address this particular question.

These are the types of questions I'm looking for answers to. In fact, we are going to have this very discussion in church this morning.

[joshuabgood]

Gary, would you condemn, al quaeda, the mafia, the Taliban, Hezbollah, the Confederacy, and the rebellious 13 colonies, and Henry the 8th?

What makes a coercive principality a ruler by divine right?