Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[nett]

What is the difference between political oppression of free speech and corporate suppression (what he have in the west now) thereof? At least political oppression is not behind the guise of a "free society".

You haven't spent any time behind the iron curtain. I have. I'd like to take you to Sachsenhausen, the concentration camp outside of Berlin, and show you that they continued to use these camps, but for political prisoners. I used to watch East German propaganda on TV. There's a difference, trust me.

Would you like to have been a serf in Tsarist Russia, the period that Putin now idolizes in his speeches? Would you like to be a person living in a neighboring country?

The Berlin wall fell.

Regarding the tired old "everybody I don't like is Hitler" arguments. Has Putin started an ethnic cleansing campaign that I'm not aware of? While we're on the topic, which did God care less for the Weimar Republic or the Third Reich? Which was more righteous?

You mean the tired old "every dictator who poisons or imprisons his political foes, insists that even basic truths like the fact they are at war with another country may not be said out loud without threat of jail or worse, jails protestors, and starts the biggest military invasion since World War II is actually the kind of tyrant we should be worried about"? This is not like calling Justin Trudeau or George Bush Hitler.

Canada tried to freeze people's bank accounts, after rounding them up and dropping them off on the side of the road, all without a trial.

How much blood do you need to see before you start getting uncomfortable?

How many civilians have been killed? How does it compare to Israel's "defensive" actions in the occupied territories?

And take a good look at Putin in Chechnya. And some of the mysteries surrounding the secret police and those bombings. Declaring that Ukraine has no right to be a country and that their language is not a language and that they should belong to Russia ... sounds a lot like saying this people has no right to exist.

What is the political will towards Putin in Chechnya?

If you care so much about hiterl-esque ethnic genocide, you should be more enraged by China and atrocities committed against the Uighurs. You can actually take some action in that case too. You could easily call for personal boycotts against any companies doing business in China, or buying goods from China, but that would be a little too uncomfortable personally. It's a lot easier to be an armchair white knight virtue signaling about how Putin is the next Hitler, than to actually do something.

China is another example of a dangerous dictatorship. And of course, they have announced an alliance.

You won't see me defending either China or Russia in these actions. And you won't see me attacking either Ukraine or the Uighurs or Taiwan.

No, but I also won't see you raving hysterically on a 100 page thread about China either. The volume of your words show your level of concern.
I don't believe you care about bloodshed, because the war in Ukraine has not killed that many civilians, current estimates would be 1/1000 the number of civilian casualties compares to the Uighur genocide.

I think the reason you care so much about The Ukraine, is because it's shaking the foundation of liberal western ideology, which you've indicated a strong identity with.

And if you want to fight liberalism, remember that Hitler and Mussolini probably did more to promote liberalism in Europe than anyone else. Because of the stink of what they had done. And the church suffered a serious loss of credibility because of the degree to which it had cooperated.

I agree with you, both of them did really bad things. There is still a chance that Putin does really bad things too, but he's not even close so far, and drawing comparisons at this point diminishes the historical events, and sensationalizes the current events. Both effects are entirely unhelpful.

Since you're questioned how much bloodshed I need to see, I'd like to know, what are you personally doing about the Uighurs?

We've tried to be conscious of buying products that are made my companies that have used Uighur labor, and generally try to limit consumption of anything that is manufactured in China. It's a very small step, but if everyone did it, things would change. I would like to be able to do more.

[JimFoxvog]

We believe and confess that God has ordained power and authority, and set them to punish the evil, and protect the good, to govern the world, and maintain countries and cities, with their subjects, in good order and regulation; and that we, therefore, may not despise, revile, or resist the same, but must acknowledge and honor them as the ministers of God, and be subject and obedient unto them, yea, ready for all good works, especially in that which is not contrary to the law, will, and commandment of God; also faithfully pay custom, tribute, and taxes, and to render unto them their dues, even also as the Son of God taught and practiced, and commanded His disciples to do; that we, moreover, must constantly and earnestly pray to the Lord for them and their welfare, and for the prosperity of the country, that we may dwell under its protection, earn our livelihood, and lead a quiet, peaceable life, with all godliness and honesty; and, furthermore, that the Lord would recompense unto them, here, and afterwards in eternity, all benefits, liberty, and favor which we enjoy here under their praiseworthy administration. Romans 13:1-7; Titus 3:1; 1 Peter 2:17; Matthew 22:21; Matthew 17:27; 1 Timothy 2:1.

Article 13 Dordrecht Confession

Would you agree or disagree with this?

"God has ordained power and authority, and set them to punish the evil, and protect the good". Agree.

"we, therefore, may not despise, revile, or resist the same," Conditional upon the power actually "punishing the evil and protecting the good" as God wants them to.

[nett]

"God has ordained power and authority, and set them to punish the evil, and protect the good". Agree.

"we, therefore, may not despise, revile, or resist the same," Conditional upon the power actually "punishing the evil and protecting the good" as God wants them to.

How do you discern the second conditional?

[RZehr]

Dennis Prager tries to separate “liberal” from the “Left.”

I generally appreciate the values that I've seen in the Prager videos that I have seen. However, I guess I'm a bit jaded whenever I come across political activist propaganda like this. As such, while there are degrees of differences on the political spectrum, this "liberal" vs. "Left" distinction, simply strikes me as a right wing effort to divide the opposition. Just like the "Left" might drive wedges between the "conservatives" and the "alt-right". Whatever the difference may be, the thing that really is noticeable is simply the effort to divide the opposition.

[Neto]

The Crimean Muslims have not fared well under Russian rule. They lived there when Crimea was taken over by the Russian Empire (from Turkey, 1853) and from what I've read, were allowed to remain there until the Soviet Union began to export native Russians to that area. They were driven out, and returned in mass after the Ukrainian republic was formed. I also remember reading about how they were treated by the Russian Federation after Crimea was taken in 2014.

Here is an article from several years back about life under the Russian government.

https://worldbulletin.dunyabulteni.net/ ... 43844.html

I'm not writing from a pro-Muslim point of view, but Crimea was their ancestral home. I have also read (back some years ago) that during the time that there was a Mennonite colony established in Crimea, they lived in some of the same villages as the Tatars and Uyghers, and got along well with them, in spite of their very different faiths. (What made me think of this was that I recently saw a statement published by the Uyghers of China, that they "stand with Ukraine.")
Here's another I just saw:

https://euromaidanpress.com/2017/09/18/ ... an-press/

[RZehr]

That's a very milquetoast take on things.

If you don't see the cracks forming in the global western liberal paradigm, you won't be able to understand what Russia is doing.

Before anyone gets the pitchforks. I'm not trying to make a case Russia is doing a good thing, and The Ukraine deserves it. I'm making a case for Christians remaining neutral on the morality of this invasion.

Slowly puts down pitchforks....

[Neto]

"God has ordained power and authority, and set them to punish the evil, and protect the good". Agree.

"we, therefore, may not despise, revile, or resist the same," Conditional upon the power actually "punishing the evil and protecting the good" as God wants them to.

How do you discern the second conditional?

I also could not agree to the conditional statement, that if the government in control does not punish evil and reward good, then we are not obligated to respect it in general ways, or that we are free to resist it (except where they demand we disobey God, in which case we are to accept the punishment for disobedience "as the privilege of suffering with Christ"). Paul wrote that when he, and all of Israel was living under the iron thumb of Rome, and they very often did not reward good and punish (only) evil doers. I think he was speaking out of God's concept, his will, for that, and every other nation. (Yes, I know that Paul resisted some treatment he received at the hand of Rome, but as far as I can see the Scripture also does not endorse those actions.)

[Josh]

Of note is China refusing to accept Western sanctions against Russia. America is actually talking about sanctions against China too.

This is the end of the West, folks. America looks like a very dangerous teasing partner who basically demands complete political control of your country whilst expecting other countries to ignore when America does the exact same stuff. No independent “sovereign” nation in their right mind wants to be a Western client state anymore.

America has no ability to project force into Ukraine. Just lots of big talk and flying people like the VP to Poland. Zero action, other than shipping arms which end up getting blown up in a missile strike.

America is facing lacking air superiority as well against Russian hypersonic missiles. America has been paying defence contractors billions to develop the same thing - so far with no results. Mach 10 missiles are a game changer. America has zero air defence against that.

In light of this, perhaps America should be less aggressive about demanding every country around the globe allow gay marriage.

[temporal1]

Dennis Prager tries to separate “liberal” from the “Left.”

I generally appreciate the values that I've seen in the Prager videos that I have seen.

However, I guess I'm a bit jaded whenever I come across political activist propaganda like this.
As such, while there are degrees of differences on the political spectrum, this "liberal" vs. "Left" distinction, simply strikes me as a right wing effort to divide the opposition. Just like the "Left" might drive wedges between the "conservatives" and the "alt-right". Whatever the difference may be, the thing that really is noticeable is simply the effort to divide the opposition.

i guess, on this, i must be a bit less jaded, for a very brief piece, it helped me get a glimpse of how otherwise intelligent lucid moral people, even believers, could freely choose to vote for (easy example) abortion corporations, year after year (talk about massive, even unlimited bloodshed of innocents!) - but, also, failed policies that have decimated families, emptied church pews, increased violent crime, gutted employment. “The 1 response” is always the same: Throw more taxpayer dollars at it!

i see what you’re saying, i don’t deny it. and, it’s definitely the predictable response.
still. for me, for a short piece, it sheds light.

when the goal is truth, “sides” no longer matter.

[Bootstrap]

No, but I also won't see you raving hysterically on a 100 page thread about China either. The volume of your words show your level of concern.

Try defending what China is doing to the Uighurs and to Christians, day after day, in multiple threads. I think you will feel the volume of my words in those threads, too. I don't see anyone doing that here, though.

I don't believe you care about bloodshed, because the war in Ukraine has not killed that many civilians, current estimates would be 1/1000 the number of civilian casualties compares to the Uighur genocide.

If you don't believe I care about bloodshed, it's going to be hard to have much of a conversation, because you will never have any idea what I am saying or what I care about. This is one of the reasons I volunteer to help with refugees. I have heard many of their stories. I have heard many of the stories of East and West Germans who lived through World War II.

Do you also think Russia did not create much bloodshed in Syria? In Chechnya? Do you think all the dead have been counted in Ukraine? We usually find there was much more than we knew at first.

I agree with you, both of them did really bad things. There is still a chance that Putin does really bad things too, but he's not even close so far, and drawing comparisons at this point diminishes the historical events, and sensationalizes the current events. Both effects are entirely unhelpful.

"Not even close so far" ... well, neither was Hitler at the beginning. And I think Putin has already done some incredibly bad things.