Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Bootstrap]

I nothing but sympathy for displaced, disenfranchised people in the Ukraine regardless of whether it due to this war, or previous oppression (eg: the Asov Battalion's evil behavior). However, there is no virtue in sensationalized, astroturfed sympathy that foments ethnic hate. I will not be swayed into hating Russians, I'm sure that offends you, but it's not gonna happen.

The kind of sympathy that falsely paints Ukranians as a bunch of Nazis who deserved to be invaded? The kind of sympathy that refuses to believe that these war atrocities are real? The kind of sympathy that keeps using the word "evil" for the people who got invaded and never uses that word for the things Putin is doing to them? What kind of sympathy is that?

Would you even allow a thread to focus on sympathy for Ukranians?

Hating Russians? Certainly not. But if you cannot see the injustice and immorality of Putin's actions ... if you cannot take war atrocities seriously ... the Russians I know can see these things. The Russians who live in Russia are not allowed to hear about what is happening.

[temporal1]

.. Would you even allow a thread to focus on sympathy for Ukranians?

There are abundant heartfelt prayers in this thread, as well as sources for donations.
In my mind, every post in this thread is a prayer for relief for Ukraine ..

Neto started a thread dedicated to donations, a very good and helpful idea.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4611

A prayer thread has been requested, another good idea.

This thread is Current Events, most posts are about current events.

[Bootstrap]

Setting aside your views of who were the aggressors in the first two World Wars for now, why in the world would NATO - particularly the members of the EU - be secretly fomenting a full-scale war in Europe? This would be an irrational position that would endanger their own safety, existence, and prosperity.

Why would Russia be doing the same actions to bring about a world war?

Because Russia thinks the West is weak and would never stand up to them, so they think they can do this without starting a world war.

it seems like their own existence, safety and particularly their prosperity is severely hampered.

Because the last few times they did this, nothing on this scale happened. Ukraine was the one that got the West's attention.

Why is Russia the only country with an irrational leader? might it be that some in NATO's countries are also irrational and world war may be being plotted by irrational actors on both sides?

That could happen. And I don't know what to advise the world's leaders. Appeasing someone like Hitler or Putin has its dangers. Putin will be angry about anything that limits his ability to bully and control the countries around him. NATO fighting Russia is terrifying. Economic warfare hurts ordinary Russians. Doing nothing is cruel to Ukraine. I don't know the answer, I do know to pray and to find ways to help the victims.

But what Putin is doing here is not remotely OK. Putin and Justin Trudeau are not the same. Let's stop justifying Putin's actions here.

[temporal1]

Setting aside your views of who were the aggressors in the first two World Wars for now, why in the world would NATO - particularly the members of the EU - be secretly fomenting a full-scale war in Europe? This would be an irrational position that would endanger their own safety, existence, and prosperity.

Why would Russia be doing the same actions to bring about a world war?
it seems like their own existence, safety and particularly their prosperity is severely hampered.

Why is Russia the only country with an irrational leader?

might it be that some in NATO's countries are also irrational and world war may be being plotted
by irrational actors on both sides?

i found myself asking a similar question.

Women: losing
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=4621

.. Btw. These are the very elected now deciding about/toying with WWIII.

There can be no presupposition of sanity.

[Soloist]

Setting aside your views of who were the aggressors in the first two World Wars for now, why in the world would NATO - particularly the members of the EU - be secretly fomenting a full-scale war in Europe? This would be an irrational position that would endanger their own safety, existence, and prosperity.

Why would Russia be doing the same actions to bring about a world war? it seems like their own existence, safety and particularly their prosperity is severely hampered. Why is Russia the only country with an irrational leader? might it be that some in NATO's countries are also irrational and world war may be being plotted by irrational actors on both sides?

I don’t think anyone really wants WWIII and I think looking at what’s going on as a nefarious irrational plot is the wrong framing. The different sides are acting out their different self-interests, which are in conflict with each other. What Russia or NATO are doing may be wrong, but it’s not irrational. We’re not talking about James Bondian supervillains plotting world domination in their secret island volcano lairs.

Its fascinating that several of your posts on this thread I find a full hearted agreement with

[nett]

I nothing but sympathy for displaced, disenfranchised people in the Ukraine regardless of whether it due to this war, or previous oppression (eg: the Asov Battalion's evil behavior). However, there is no virtue in sensationalized, astroturfed sympathy that foments ethnic hate. I will not be swayed into hating Russians, I'm sure that offends you, but it's not gonna happen.

The kind of sympathy that falsely paints Ukranians as a bunch of Nazis who deserved to be invaded? The kind of sympathy that refuses to believe that these war atrocities are real? The kind of sympathy that keeps using the word "evil" for the people who got invaded and never uses that word for the things Putin is doing to them? What kind of sympathy is that?

Would you even allow a thread to focus on sympathy for Ukranians?

Hating Russians? Certainly not. But if you cannot see the injustice and immorality of Putin's actions ... if you cannot take war atrocities seriously ... the Russians I know can see these things. The Russians who live in Russia are not allowed to hear about what is happening.

The hyperbole indicates you're not interested in a rational conversation.

[nett]

But what Putin is doing here is not remotely OK. Putin and Justin Trudeau are not the same. Let's stop justifying Putin's actions here.

Putin is no different from Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden. You need to step down from your moral high horse.

[Szdfan]

Why would Russia be doing the same actions to bring about a world war? it seems like their own existence, safety and particularly their prosperity is severely hampered. Why is Russia the only country with an irrational leader? might it be that some in NATO's countries are also irrational and world war may be being plotted by irrational actors on both sides?

I don’t think anyone really wants WWIII and I think looking at what’s going on as a nefarious irrational plot is the wrong framing. The different sides are acting out their different self-interests, which are in conflict with each other. What Russia or NATO are doing may be wrong, but it’s not irrational. We’re not talking about James Bondian supervillains plotting world domination in their secret island volcano lairs.

Its fascinating that several of your posts on this thread I find a full hearted agreement with

It’s easy for me to get caught up with tribal “us and them” emotions, but I’m trying to keep space for the complexity of this. I care about this corner of the world. My dad became a Russian citizen a couple of months ago and while I cannot handle conversation with him about these topics, I’m also worried about him,

I feel that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is deeply wrong and a horrible mess that will end badly for everyone involved. I’m not anti-Russian, but anti-Putin. My Dad and his (my?) Russian family will suffer from this. It’s a tragedy and I grieve what’s happening. I also want to avoid reducing this conflict to a cartoon version of reality.

[Dan Z]

Setting aside your views of who were the aggressors in the first two World Wars for now, why in the world would NATO - particularly the members of the EU - be secretly fomenting a full-scale war in Europe? This would be an irrational position that would endanger their own safety, existence, and prosperity.

Why would Russia be doing the same actions to bring about a world war? it seems like their own existence, safety and particularly their prosperity is severely hampered. Why is Russia the only country with an irrational leader? might it be that some in NATO's countries are also irrational and world war may be being plotted by irrational actors on both sides?

C'mon Soloist - you know Russia doesn't want a world war...Putin wants to extend his political control into Ukraine to keep NATO from encroaching on his western flank. By invading Ukraine he may get his wish, but I think he seriously underestimated the strength of Ukrainian resolve to keep his forces out, as well as the West's unified economic response...and perhaps he overestimated his own force's readiness for the task. I didn't say Putin is irrational - he's an autocratic narcissist but he's not crazy - he doesn't want direct military engagement with NATO - that could be extremely costly or even fatal to Mother Russia.

And regarding NATO aspirations - I'll say it again - there is absolutely no rationale for NATO to plot to bring Europe into WWIII. I'm curious where this cynical, conspiratorial ideology you fellows are promoting comes from. This is beyond the normal MN contrarianism. Anyone else on MN can help source this?

[barnhart]

But what Putin is doing here is not remotely OK. Putin and Justin Trudeau are not the same. Let's stop justifying Putin's actions here.

Putin is no different from Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden. You need to step down from your moral high horse.

I can think of some differences.