Vaccine Mandates a Slippery Slope towards the Surveillance State and Mark of the Beast

[Soloist]

OK. But I'm going to stick with the original question - are babies being aborted in order to produce vaccines? I still think the answer is "no". Here's one place where I think you address this directly, implying something that I would like to see more evidence for:

I see so you can get a detailed response to yours but refuse to respond. Seems to be a pattern where you go silent any time you don't have a good response. You complained no one responded to your Catholic link so I did for you.
Also I already answered you. Please reread the posts.

[Soloist]

If a guy killed one of his children and then offered to donate the organs, would you accept? After all, he was going to kill the child whether or not you would accept one of the child's organs.
If something like this were to happen society would be outraged and rightly so. Why shouldn't we be equally outraged when a mother chooses to have her unborn child killed and donated for scientific research?

Amen!

We should be

[Bootstrap]

OK. But I'm going to stick with the original question - are babies being aborted in order to produce vaccines? I still think the answer is "no". Here's one place where I think you address this directly, implying something that I would like to see more evidence for:

I see so you can get a detailed response to yours but refuse to respond. Seems to be a pattern where you go silent any time you don't have a good response. You complained no one responded to your Catholic link so I did for you.
Also I already answered you. Please reread the posts.

Oh, I won't respond to everything someone says if I'm trying to stick with one subject. And I won't research every subject when I'm trying to establish the facts on one. I simply don't have time to make MN a fulltime job. And keeping focus is usually helpful for figuring out the truth about any one claim.

You can read bad motives into that if you choose. But I suspect I do as much to provide facts and respond to people as anyone else on MN. And I think it's a lot easier to discuss facts without all the personal attacks.

Thanks for answering this. We were both writing at the same time. I will look for the quote I was responding to, I thought you had said something that said, fairly directly, that children were being aborted in order to produce vaccines, accusing me of approving of that. If that's not what it implied then I will apologize. I have to leave in a few minutes, it may be a day or two.

[Soloist]

Oh, I won't respond to everything someone says if I'm trying to stick with one subject. And I won't research every subject when I'm trying to establish the facts on one. I simply don't have time to make MN a fulltime job. And keeping focus is usually helpful for figuring out the truth about any one claim.

convenient

[Josh]

Oh, I won't respond to everything someone says if I'm trying to stick with one subject. And I won't research every subject when I'm trying to establish the facts on one. I simply don't have time to make MN a fulltime job. And keeping focus is usually helpful for figuring out the truth about any one claim.

You can read bad motives into that if you choose. But I suspect I do as much to provide facts and respond to people as anyone else on MN. And I think it's a lot easier to discuss facts without all the personal attacks.

Thanks for answering this. We were both writing at the same time. I will look for the quote I was responding to, I thought you had said something that said, fairly directly, that children were being aborted in order to produce vaccines, accusing me of approving of that. If that's not what it implied then I will apologize. I have to leave in a few minutes, it may be a day or two.

Wow.

Boot, you skipping out on this discussion once you were faced with some solid challenges... it's like clockwork.

This is why I stopped replying to you with a lot of in depth research or putting any work into it. When I did so, you just post an excuse like this "I'll be gone for a few days" and then never end up responding.

Regardless, you have accused people like me who don't want to use foetal stem cells of disregarding human life by not wanting to use vaccines made with foetal stem cells. This is a really serious accusation.

You have made it clear you have zero respect for our deeply-felt religious beliefs, and that you want to see us unemployed, unable to buy or sell any groceries, and unable to get a job.

This is a big problem. You have the mindset of a totalitarian dictator. Where, exactly, is the gospel of Jesus in any of this? What exactly is your peace witness here? You seem to think it's a great thing to force people to be jobless, homeless, and starving because they stick to well-established religious beliefs.

Exactly what religion do you serve, anyway?

[Bootstrap]

Oh, I won't respond to everything someone says if I'm trying to stick with one subject. And I won't research every subject when I'm trying to establish the facts on one. I simply don't have time to make MN a fulltime job. And keeping focus is usually helpful for figuring out the truth about any one claim.

convenient

Yes, it's convenient to stick with the subject. In fact, it's almost impossible to discuss any subject fruitfully without doing that. And I really did want to spend Christmas Eve and Christmas with my family. I need to balance MN against real life.

In this thread, I am discussing two main questions:

1. Do vaccines look like the description of the Mark of the Beast in the Revelation? I don't think so.
2. Are babies being aborted in order to produce vaccines? I don't think so.

I may not put time into opinions on lots of other things in this thread. I think we have been discussing #2, and the comments you made on the article don't seem to provide new evidence on that question. As far as I can tell, these things are true:

1. The major vaccines used for Covid-19 in the United States use either HEK293 or PER.C6 for testing or development. As far as I know, these are the only two fetal cell lines in question.
2. HEK293 comes from a baby aborted or miscarried in 1973. PER.C6 comes from a baby aborted in 1985. These are not new cell lines. Neither of these involves a baby aborted for the purpose of scientific research or vaccine production.

I think that means the following statement is not true:

I've never claimed a baby was aborted today to make the Covid-19 vaccine. The baby is aborted today to make X-vaccine in 20 years.

In fact, there are laws against that and AMA ethics rules against that. And there's no need for anyone who wants to use fetal cells in research to try to encourage someone to get an abortion, there are 800,000 abortions a year in the United States. So yes, babies are being aborted today. And yes, tissue derived from babies aborted in 1973 and 1985 are used in vaccines made today. But that doesn't mean the babies were aborted in order to create vaccines.

That doesn't resolve the ethical questions you and I have discussed in other threads, especially the one devoted to ethics. But I don't think people are killing babies to create vaccines. And I don't think people are killing babies for the sake of medical research. I think they are using cells from babies who are already being killed.

Are there other things closely related to the subject of this thread that I missed in your post?

[Bootstrap]

Regardless, you have accused people like me who don't want to use foetal stem cells of disregarding human life by not wanting to use vaccines made with foetal stem cells. This is a really serious accusation.

You have made it clear you have zero respect for our deeply-felt religious beliefs, and that you want to see us unemployed, unable to buy or sell any groceries, and unable to get a job.

Josh, I think these are both blatant lies. I don't believe either of those things, and I doubt that I said them.

If I ever said either of these things, would you please provide a link so I can see where I said it and apologize and retract it? If you don't have such a link, and you think making serious, false accusations is a bad thing, would you please retract your accusations?

[Soloist]

Oh, I won't respond to everything someone says if I'm trying to stick with one subject. And I won't research every subject when I'm trying to establish the facts on one. I simply don't have time to make MN a fulltime job. And keeping focus is usually helpful for figuring out the truth about any one claim.

convenient

Yes, it's convenient to stick with the subject. In fact, it's almost impossible to discuss any subject fruitfully without doing that. And I really did want to spend Christmas Eve and Christmas with my family. I need to balance MN against real life.

In this thread, I am discussing two main questions:

1. Do vaccines look like the description of the Mark of the Beast in the Revelation? I don't think so.
2. Are babies being aborted in order to produce vaccines? I don't think so.

I may not put time into opinions on lots of other things in this thread. I think we have been discussing #2, and the comments you made on the article don't seem to provide new evidence on that question. As far as I can tell, these things are true:

1. The major vaccines used for Covid-19 in the United States use either HEK293 or PER.C6 for testing or development. As far as I know, these are the only two fetal cell lines in question.
2. HEK293 comes from a baby aborted or miscarried in 1973. PER.C6 comes from a baby aborted in 1985. These are not new cell lines. Neither of these involves a baby aborted for the purpose of scientific research or vaccine production.

I think that means the following statement is not true:

I've never claimed a baby was aborted today to make the Covid-19 vaccine. The baby is aborted today to make X-vaccine in 20 years.

In fact, there are laws against that and AMA ethics rules against that. And there's no need for anyone who wants to use fetal cells in research to try to encourage someone to get an abortion, there are 800,000 abortions a year in the United States. So yes, babies are being aborted today. And yes, tissue derived from babies aborted in 1973 and 1985 are used in vaccines made today. But that doesn't mean the babies were aborted in order to create vaccines.

That doesn't resolve the ethical questions you and I have discussed in other threads, especially the one devoted to ethics. But I don't think people are killing babies to create vaccines. And I don't think people are killing babies for the sake of medical research. I think they are using cells from babies who are already being killed.

Are there other things closely related to the subject of this thread that I missed in your post?

Well you could start your education by actually reading some links.

[GaryK]

Regardless, you have accused people like me who don't want to use foetal stem cells of disregarding human life by not wanting to use vaccines made with foetal stem cells. This is a really serious accusation.

You have made it clear you have zero respect for our deeply-felt religious beliefs, and that you want to see us unemployed, unable to buy or sell any groceries, and unable to get a job.

Josh, I think these are both blatant lies. I don't believe either of those things, and I doubt that I said them.

If I ever said either of these things, would you please provide a link so I can see where I said it and apologize and retract it? If you don't have such a link, and you think making serious, false accusations is a bad thing, would you please retract your accusations?

This sure brings back a lot of memories of how you accused me of something very specific that wasn't true and I asked you to do exactly what you are asking Josh to do and to this day you have refused to do so.

[Bootstrap]

Well you could start your education by actually reading some links.

Let me know if there's something specific that I got wrong, with some evidence. I have read some of your links, not all, but so far, I think the claims I made in the post you responded to are true.

1. The major vaccines used for Covid-19 in the United States use either HEK293 or PER.C6 for testing or development. As far as I know, these are the only two fetal cell lines in question.
2. HEK293 comes from a baby aborted or miscarried in 1973. PER.C6 comes from a baby aborted in 1985. These are not new cell lines. Neither of these involves a baby aborted for the purpose of scientific research or vaccine production.
3. Babies are not being aborted in order to make vaccines.

Did I get any of that wrong? If so, evidence, please?