The Josh we don't want to hear about

[ragpicker]

I find it humorous when people try to convince me Bill Gothard was a bad dude.

Which part is humorous?

• That you can be convinced of anything?
• That Bill Gothard was actually a bad dude?
• Or that you ever believed otherwise?

That doesn’t make any sense. Wanna try again?

[Josh]

Wasn't just the family that protected him. It was also Focus on the Family and Bill Gothard. And also the local police who also turned out to be pedophiles. The cop who let him off the hook is now serving 40+ years for child porn himself. And frankly, the producers of the TV show who kept coming back for more.

I didn't know Gothard got involved. Have any details?

It’s the allegation that matters for Ken and his crowd, not the details.

BTW, this is not to defend Gothard. I despise what he has done.

Indeed. I am actually quite anti-Gothard and anti-Focus on the Family, but since when did either of them get mixed up with Josh Duggar?

[Josh]

It’s the allegation that matters for Ken and his crowd, not the details.

BTW, this is not to defend Gothard. I despise what he has done.

I’m not sure what details you feel are missing. Do you trust Christianity Today? Here is one recent article that details some of the connections between the Duggars and Gothard. When it was first discovered that Josh Duggar was a pedophile they sent him off to Gothard rather than confront the crime head on: https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/ ... rial-.html and the Arkansas cop who looked the other way and allowed it to happen rather than arresting him was himself convinced of child pornography and sentenced to 40 years in prison

As for Gothard himself? I believe his has faced over 30 separate accusations of sexual harassment and sexual abuse. You can look that up yourself.

My point in the old excerpt you quoted above was that there were a lot of people involved in protecting and covering up for Josh Duggar. That it wasn’t just the immediate Duggar family. Are you suggesting that I was incorrect in making that claim?

ragpicker, what you mean?

Ken: Thanks, that article links to a 2015 tribune article that makes it so much worse in hindsight.

Founder Bill Gothard said in an interview with the Tribune that the institute also operated the Little Rock, Ark., facility where the Duggars' eldest son, Josh, went as a teenager after admitting that he sexually abused his younger sisters.

"They did the right things. They did maybe even more than was expected," said Gothard, 80, of LaGrange. "They certainly cannot be faulted in what they tried to do to correct the problem. The problem was corrected. … The fact that he became an outstanding young man would indicate that kind of success."

Perhaps Josh Duggar went to my burger-and-fries restaurant after admitting he engaged in sexual abuse. That doesn’t mean I’m somehow involved.

[Ken]

Indeed. I am actually quite anti-Gothard and anti-Focus on the Family, but since when did either of them get mixed up with Josh Duggar?

and

Perhaps Josh Duggar went to my burger-and-fries restaurant after admitting he engaged in sexual abuse. That doesn’t mean I’m somehow involved.

Seriously Josh? That is your take?

According to a wide variety of news sources:

1. The Duggars and Gothard had close business and religious ties for two decades leading up to the collapse of Gothard's empire in 2014 due to a wave of sex abuse allegations and the revelation in 2015 that Josh Duggar had been a sexual predator a decade earlier. And that Josh Duggar had been shipped off to stay with Gothard to get him away from the younger siblings that he was preying on and to prevent further local law enforcement investigations into Josh's history of predatory abuse.

2. The Duggars were members and promoters of Gothard's Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP) on their show and frequently spoke at IBLP conferences for over two decades. They joined Gothard's organization in 1992 and did not publicly part ways all the various sex abuse allegations within both the Duggar and Gothard circles came to light in 2014 and 2015.

3. The Duggars were constant promoters of Gothard's Advanced Training Institute (ATI) homeschooling curriculum on their show and used it with their own children. Their show was, in part, a running infomercial for ATI. A home school curriculum that has exceedingly problematic elements related to sexual abuse and teaches victims that they are largely responsible for their own abuse: https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2013/04 ... survivors/ In other words, Gothard's "blame the victim and coddle the predator" approach to sexual abuse is, in part, what led to Josh Duggar's crimes being wallpapered over and covered up rather than confronted and addressed.

This was all all extensively documented across dozens of media sources half a decade ago when these abuse scandals became public. Feel free to look it all up yourself. Google is your friend. Here is just one summary from 2015 that summarizes the news coverage of the connections between the Duggars and Gothard: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/theslice/ ... principles

[ohio jones]

Josh Duggar had been shipped off to stay with Gothard ...

Most of what you are saying seems more or less accurate, but this makes it sound like Josh moved into Bill's house in Oak Brook. He was institutionalized at IBLP Little Rock, which is a rather different situation that may or may not have included direct personal involvement by Bill himself.

[Ken]

Josh Duggar had been shipped off to stay with Gothard ...

Most of what you are saying seems more or less accurate, but this makes it sound like Josh moved into Bill's house in Oak Brook. He was institutionalized at IBLP Little Rock, which is a rather different situation that may or may not have included direct personal involvement by Bill himself.

Point taken. I don't really know the extent to with Gothard was personally involved in the operations of IBLP, and to what extent he was personally involved in the decision to send Josh Duggar there. I don't know if that information is out there or not but I'm not really that interested in searching it out. I feel queasy every time I dig into the affairs of any of these folks.

Suffice it to say that Gothard and the Duggars have been attached at the hip for over two decades in a mutually beneficial relationship.

[ragpicker]

Point taken. I don't really know the extent to with Gothard was personally involved in the operations of IBLP, and to what extent he was personally involved in the decision to send Josh Duggar there. I don't know if that information is out there or not but I'm not really that interested in searching it out. I feel queasy every time I dig into the affairs of any of these folks.

Wow.

(But not surprised.)

PS. There’s a reason you feel comfortable with the vile mainstream news media.

[Ken]

Point taken. I don't really know the extent to with Gothard was personally involved in the operations of IBLP, and to what extent he was personally involved in the decision to send Josh Duggar there. I don't know if that information is out there or not but I'm not really that interested in searching it out. I feel queasy every time I dig into the affairs of any of these folks.

Wow.

(But not surprised.)

PS. There’s a reason you feel comfortable with the vile mainstream news media.

Every time you dig deeper into the Duggars and Gothard you find more and more allegations of various forms of child abuse and sexual harassment. And worse yet, every manner of attempts to use scripture to whitewash and hand-wave away such abuse and blame the young victims for the actions of the predators who preyed on them. Recently, for example, we learned that Josh Duggar wasn't just implicated in child porn. But the most vile and horrific subcategory of child porn in which actual children are tortured in painful horrific ways and the results captured on video and camera. Every time you dig deeper into these folks you feel queasy, or should.

I am equally critical and sickened by any "secular" mainstream examples. Like, for example, the whole sordid Roman Polanski affair. Or the rich and famous folks who swirled around the orbit of Jeffrey Epstein.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

[Ernie]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

A right-leaning one.

[ragpicker]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

My point is, Mr. Fake-but-accurate-Dan Rather approves heartily of your shenanigans.

So does Mr. Twist-things-to-advance-your-agenda-Bill Gothard.

There’s very little difference in how you approach things and how Bill Gothard does. You just happen to disagree on some of the issues, including which kinds of perversion you will defend. One of the problems with the Bill Gothard types is that you can never pin them down. They make a statement. You address it. They slip out the side.

Like one Gothard fan I recently had the misfortune of needing to extensively interact with… He asked “If X were occurring, what would your response be?”. After clarifying his question, I replied with “If this were the situation, here’s what I hope I would do”, followed by a list of “I would do X” type statements. His reply? “I see you’ve said a lot of words, and made a lot of accusations, but you haven’t answered the question.”

HUH??? That’s bizarre. I specifically answered the questions and I made zero accusations. The “lot of words” thing may or may not be true, but I ignored it as it’s a tactic he uses to shut the other party down while he himself uses even more words.

So I replied that I had indeed answered the question. Walked him through the question, my request for clarification, his clarification, and my answers. His reply? “I find it telling that you keep refusing to answer the question.”

Wow. (Sound familiar?)

So I got him to restate his question in different words. It was the same question. “In this specific situation (he detailed it), how would your respond to it?”

I replied with my answers.

He replied with additional gas lighting and that I still wasn’t answering his question, and that he didn’t really expect me to, blah blah blah.

You can never pin the guy down, whether answering him or confronting him. He always squirts out to the side.

He will taunt and accuse and mock, then when proven wrong, he sidesteps. You’re not as bad as him… I actually saw you back down the other day and admit you were wrong, but you wouldn’t acknowledge or take responsibility for the mockery you engaged in. If you have mocked someone, then were proven wrong, just own it all. I get the exact same feeling when interacting with you as I do when interacting with the Bill Gothard types I’ve had the misfortune of running into.

I know what drives it, but I’m not going to go there as it’s not profitable in any manner. Just to be clear, I’m not upset or offended by you. I’ve made my point over the last while and hopefully it has brought clarity, which is all I was ever after. I’m probably about ready to move on.

Have a nice day.