Coronavirus Outbreak

[Robert]

The challenge is we still can not stop a virus. Try, as we might, we have fallen short again. This means we have to find a way to live with it until our immune systems block our Ace receptors from attaching. The attempt to eradicate it has failed. We must learn to live with it as we do many other viral infections.

The original plan to slow the spread was the correct approach. This is all we can do. Keep our hospitals from being overwhelmed. Early treatment is key to this. As soon as there is evidence of being infected with Covid, one should seek anything that might reduce the infection. Several off label drugs along with anticlonal antibodies should be used. HCQ, Ivermection, Flux whatever it was that seems to help. Try them all. All are for short term treatment and cause no health risks. Your local doctor could help you judge what would work best for the individual and the other medications they may be on.

Once Covid has run its course in a person, they no longer need a vaccine, if they have not been previously inoculated. They are protected better than a vaccine and do not need a vaccine passport. If they have already had a vaccine, great. If that helps slow the spread or reduce the infection, great too.

If someone is opposed to the vaccine, they should have that right because there are other paths and options.

This removes all the politics that has been manipulating everyone though this process.

Vaccines do help. They may not be for everyone, but they do help.
HCQ, Ivermection, and a few other treatments help. They may not work for everyone, but they do help.
Natural immunity does help and moves us towards herd immunity.

This is the only thing that will get us past this at this time. Forcing people down one path or the other is wrong because both have their strengths and weaknesses. Let poeple and their doctors choose.

[mike]

The challenge is we still can not stop a virus. Try, as we might, we have fallen short again. This means we have to find a way to live with it until our immune systems block our Ace receptors from attaching. The attempt to eradicate it has failed. We must learn to live with it as we do many other viral infections.

The original plan to slow the spread was the correct approach. This is all we can do. Keep our hospitals from being overwhelmed. Early treatment is key to this. As soon as there is evidence of being infected with Covid, one should seek anything that might reduce the infection. Several off label drugs along with anticlonal antibodies should be used. HCQ, Ivermection, Flux whatever it was that seems to help. Try them all. All are for short term treatment and cause no health risks. Your local doctor could help you judge what would work best for the individual and the other medications they may be on.

Once Covid has run its course in a person, they no longer need a vaccine, if they have not been previously inoculated. They are protected better than a vaccine and do not need a vaccine passport. If they have already had a vaccine, great. If that helps slow the spread or reduce the infection, great too.

If someone is opposed to the vaccine, they should have that right because there are other paths and options.

This removes all the politics that has been manipulating everyone though this process.

Vaccines do help. They may not be for everyone, but they do help.
HCQ, Ivermection, and a few other treatments help. They may not work for everyone, but they do help.
Natural immunity does help and moves us towards herd immunity.

This is the only thing that will get us past this at this time. Forcing people down one path or the other is wrong because both have their strengths and weaknesses. Let poeple and their doctors choose.

I have no problem with most of this. Very well said.

[Dan Z]

The challenge is we still can not stop a virus. Try, as we might, we have fallen short again. This means we have to find a way to live with it until our immune systems block our Ace receptors from attaching. The attempt to eradicate it has failed. We must learn to live with it as we do many other viral infections.

The original plan to slow the spread was the correct approach. This is all we can do. Keep our hospitals from being overwhelmed. Early treatment is key to this. As soon as there is evidence of being infected with Covid, one should seek anything that might reduce the infection. Several off label drugs along with anticlonal antibodies should be used. HCQ, Ivermection, Flux whatever it was that seems to help. Try them all. All are for short term treatment and cause no health risks. Your local doctor could help you judge what would work best for the individual and the other medications they may be on.

Once Covid has run its course in a person, they no longer need a vaccine, if they have not been previously inoculated. They are protected better than a vaccine and do not need a vaccine passport. If they have already had a vaccine, great. If that helps slow the spread or reduce the infection, great too.

If someone is opposed to the vaccine, they should have that right because there are other paths and options.

This removes all the politics that has been manipulating everyone though this process.

Vaccines do help. They may not be for everyone, but they do help.
HCQ, Ivermection, and a few other treatments help. They may not work for everyone, but they do help.
Natural immunity does help and moves us towards herd immunity.

This is the only thing that will get us past this at this time. Forcing people down one path or the other is wrong because both have their strengths and weaknesses. Let poeple and their doctors choose.

I agree with Mike - well said and sensible Robert. You've got that gift.

I also don't believe in forcing a vaccine on people.

I think, however, you are underselling the efficacy of the vaccines a bit in limiting disease spread and preventing severe illness and death. I also think the science is still emerging on whether natural immunity is as effective as the vaccine in the long run, or whether a strategy of natural immunity enhanced with a booster might be more effective. But in all cases, as you said, we do have to find a way to adaptively live with this thing, and each person should decide for themselves and family their course of action - preferably with the council of good information from trusted healthcare providers (and less from political/media spin).

[Soloist]

I think, however, you are underselling the efficacy of the vaccines a bit in limiting disease spread and preventing severe illness and death. I also think the science is still emerging on whether natural immunity is as effective as the vaccine in the long run, or whether a strategy of natural immunity enhanced with a booster might be more effective. But in all cases, we do have to find a way to adaptively live with this thing, and each person should decide for themselves their course of action - preferably with the council of good information from trusted healthcare providers (and less political/media spin).

The emerging science is on both the vaccine and the natural immunity. We don't have historical data on similar vaccines to this one, we do however, have historical data on natural immunity from two other diseases in this specific family.

Historically, natural immunity has almost always been better, but a pyrrhic victory isn't desirable. That's why vaccines entered the game. Small pox, natural immunity (I believe) was for life, while based on the literature, the vaccine roughly had to be repeated every 10 years or so. 2 people have survived rabies, I have no idea if they have natural immunity now, but it was too much cost for the survival that the vaccine would fix. The data on the vaccine efficacy at preventing infection has ranged from from low 40% to as high 95% depending on several factors, most significantly time from vaccination. I've seen many studies suggesting that natural immunity doesn't last even 6 months, and I've seen studies suggesting 1-20 years. Equally so, the vaccine has a wide range of predictions and the front runners have already started doing boosters. How many will be needed is a great question but the actual data in the USA was a serious failure compared to Israel specifically. We are however, following their path just a bit slower.

[Robert]

I also think the science is still emerging on whether natural immunity is as effective as the vaccine in the long run, or whether a strategy of natural immunity enhanced with a booster might be more effective.

Why would this virus be different from others where natural immunity lasts for years?

I agree the vaccine is helpful, but not everyone feels comfortable with the creation of it and resist it because of true religious reasons. Some claim religious reasons while really it being political. Many blacks resist it because of their lack of trust in the government. I think all these are legitimate and they can easily look at other options. They are out there.

Masks and social distancing may work for other infections, but they do little for Covid. They may help a little, but not to the level some are claiming. The fact is we have to live with it like we do other virii.

[Ken]

I also think the science is still emerging on whether natural immunity is as effective as the vaccine in the long run, or whether a strategy of natural immunity enhanced with a booster might be more effective.

Why would this virus be different from others where natural immunity lasts for years?

I agree the vaccine is helpful, but not everyone feels comfortable with the creation of it and resist it because of true religious reasons. Some claim religious reasons while really it being political. Many blacks resist it because of their lack of trust in the government. I think all these are legitimate and they can easily look at other options. They are out there.

Masks and social distancing may work for other infections, but they do little for Covid. They may help a little, but not to the level some are claiming. The fact is we have to live with it like we do other virii.

Every virus is different. Measles vaccines last a lifetime. Flu vaccines protect for one flu season and then start to fade. We still don’t really know where Covid vaccines are going to fall on that spectrum and/or how much difference there will be between the different vaccines and natural immunity.

It might well be the case that you either get Covid ever 18 months or get the vaccine every 18 months.

But you are right. It is never going to completely go away as long as we are an interconnected global world of 8 billion people. We will forever be held hostage to the lowest common global denominators. At some point we will have to ask, what is the point of hugely expensive and burdensome efforts to eradicate the disease in the US when it is just going to bounce back and spread here from Haiti or Botswana or Russia or some other place that isn’t making the same efforts.

I predict that in say 5 years we will be routinely living with Covid through a combination of regular vaccinations and some level of enhanced public health and sanitation infrastructure improved indoor filtration, heightened sanitation, etc. and a lot of things will just be routine like how we inspect meat and maintain commercial refrigeration standards for foods. It will mostly fade into the background.

Personally I don’t understand some of this vaccine hesitancy, especially what you mention in the Black community. I have a Back colleague who was going on about this. I told her “just make sure you get the white version of the vaccine then like the rest of us are taking”.

[Grace]

Latest on Covid and the currant administration's attack on hard working Americans and the people who employ them.

- All workers covered by Biden's new coronavirus vaccine mandate must get their final dose January 4 of the new year
- By that date, all unvaccinated employers at companies with at least 100 workers will have to have started at least weekly testing
- The new rule will be enforced by OSHA and enforced through planned inspections – just as all other workplace rules are enforced
- Violators will face a fine no more than $13,653 for each employee who is not vaccinated or tested weekly and repeat offenders will face a fine up to $136,532
- As president-elect last December, Biden vowed he would not impose vaccine mandates on private industry

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rules.html

[Bootstrap]

http://ww11.doh.state.fl.us/comm/_partn ... latest.pdf

Vaccine impact doesn't look statistically significant to me based on this report.

Can you share your calculations?

Or are you claiming you can just look at that and know whether or not it is statistically significant at a given confidence level? Do you know what statistical significance is and how it is computed?

[ken_sylvania]

I also think the science is still emerging on whether natural immunity is as effective as the vaccine in the long run, or whether a strategy of natural immunity enhanced with a booster might be more effective.

Why would this virus be different from others where natural immunity lasts for years?

I agree the vaccine is helpful, but not everyone feels comfortable with the creation of it and resist it because of true religious reasons. Some claim religious reasons while really it being political. Many blacks resist it because of their lack of trust in the government. I think all these are legitimate and they can easily look at other options. They are out there.

Masks and social distancing may work for other infections, but they do little for Covid. They may help a little, but not to the level some are claiming. The fact is we have to live with it like we do other virii.

Every virus is different. Measles vaccines last a lifetime. Flu vaccines protect for one flu season and then start to fade. We still don’t really know where Covid vaccines are going to fall on that spectrum and/or how much difference there will be between the different vaccines and natural immunity.

It might well be the case that you either get Covid ever 18 months or get the vaccine every 18 months.

But you are right. It is never going to completely go away as long as we are an interconnected global world of 8 billion people. We will forever be held hostage to the lowest common global denominators. At some point we will have to ask, what is the point of hugely expensive and burdensome efforts to eradicate the disease in the US when it is just going to bounce back and spread here from Haiti or Botswana or Russia or some other place that isn’t making the same efforts.

I predict that in say 5 years we will be routinely living with Covid through a combination of regular vaccinations and some level of enhanced public health and sanitation infrastructure improved indoor filtration, heightened sanitation, etc. and a lot of things will just be routine like how we inspect meat and maintain commercial refrigeration standards for foods. It will mostly fade into the background.

I predict that we will also be at least semi-permanently stuck with Covid measures that could be compared to the TSA security theater at airports, etc.

Personally I don’t understand some of this vaccine hesitancy, especially what you mention in the Black community. I have a Back colleague who was going on about this. I told her “just make sure you get the white version of the vaccine then like the rest of us are taking”.

Talk about micro-aggressions. That sounds mean.

[Ken]

I predict that we will also be at least semi-permanently stuck with Covid measures that could be compared to the TSA security theater at airports, etc.

Exactly. That is basically the point of all the plexiglass barriers you see in retail. They don't do anything. But I guess they make people feel better or something.

Talk about micro-aggressions. That sounds mean.

I guess I'm not always the most politic. I'll be the first to admit that.