Vaccines and the Mark of the Beast

[Chris]

Here is a question for the biblical scholars here who have studied these topics much more than I have.

How do you know for sure what portions of scripture are meant to be taken literally, and which are to be taken figuratively or as allegory? For example, we had recent threads here that involved detailed literal interpretation of every single word of Genesis from the two creation stories to events like Noah's flood. And there are many who take offense at the notion that Genesis may involve allegory rather than literal events.

Yet here we are at the other end of the Bible with Revelations and no one is taking this passage literally. Everyone here is looking for hidden meanings and allegory in this section of scripture. Why the difference and who decides which portion of scripture is allegory and which is literal? What does Revelations 13 actually say about the "beast?" It literally says...

13 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear’s, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. 4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?”

I haven't seen any 7-headed sea monsters with 10 horns and leopard, lion, and bear parts, or any dragons. The whole planet is covered in cell phones with cameras. I'm not aware that anyone else as spied the beat yet anywhere else on the planet. So as far as I can tell, the beast it not yet among us and so any talk of 'the mark of the beast' seems premature as well. Based on the actual physical description in Revelations, it doesn't sound like we will be at all confused about it when the best is actually in our midst. It is going to be pretty hard to miss. And why vaccine cards? Why not driver's licenses which I need to cash a check these days or open a bank account? Or maybe social security cards. I need my social security number for certain financial transactions? And why the US-centric focus? This text was written somewhere in Asia Minor, perhaps in Ephesus. Maybe we should be looking for signs of the beast in Turkey and not North America?

You need to read your last paragraph... Conditioning... It's really crazy. We've always just lived this way. But 100 years ago, not so. Some people think the Mark will be a 666 on tattoo on the right hand or forehead. The "right hand" also means "right side" in Greek. We need to see most of it as symbolic. What a man in a cave on Patmos saw. He wouldn't understand computers.

"He gave power to give life unto the image of the beast" sounds very much like a screen. The only way John could have described it.

Some of that symbology is pictured here https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... es.svg.png they say it's one of the heads of the dragon. The head is a lion, body of a leopard, and feet of a bear. Red dragon. These such things.

But if you have to show something to buy and sell - especially in the marketplace, be warned. Don't do it.
1 Greek transliteration is "Having, possessing, or holding in the marketplace" dealing with the Mark.

So could it be that John on the island was watching a moving image on a phone (life unto the image), with people who would NEVER put the stinking things down (worship the image and call on the image in distress rather than God just Google it), and on the same thing showing a QR code "mark" in order to buy/sell?

It's actually extremely creepy and plausible in my opinion. If it's plausible I want nothing to do with it.

So many think it will be "so obvious". I don't think so. It's really a question if you are going to be with "the world system" or "trusting in God".

Remember by his sorceries (pharmakia which a shot is) he was able to "deceive the nations".

Our enemy is a liar. Don't expect it to be obvious. Expect to trust in God. Cling to God always.

[Ken]

You need to read your last paragraph... Conditioning... It's really crazy. We've always just lived this way. But 100 years ago, not so. Some people think the Mark will be a 666 on tattoo on the right hand or forehead. The "right hand" also means "right side" in Greek. We need to see most of it as symbolic. What a man in a cave on Patmos saw. He wouldn't understand computers.

But that is my exact point. Why do we need to see Revelations as symbolic or allegory, but not Genesis? What makes one the literal word of God and the other just allegory? The original Bronze Age audience of Genesis didn't understand modern science either.

What is the rule for determining with parts of scripture describe literal events and which are allegory? Is there one? Or is it just in the eye of the beholder?

[Bootstrap]

In the Revelation, it sure looks like it's going to be obvious, a conscious decision to declare loyalty to either The Beast or to Jesus Christ.

Anything that looks like, "oops, I had no idea this was choosing the Mark of the Beast" just doesn't meet the Scriptural test as I read it. There's no hint of anyone being tricked into accepting the Mark of the Beast or being surprised they had done so.

That's not scriptural. It doesn't say it would be obvious. It just says he will cause.
You can repent of the Mark.

I'd say the C19 vaxx is very likely the Mark. Especially when it stops allowing more people in the world to not buy or sell.

Here's the passage we are talking about. Where do you get vaccines out of this passage? I really don't see it. And who is the beast in your vaccine story? To me, "make an image of the beast" and "whoever would not worship the image of the beast" imply clear, literal idolatry. You would know if you were doing that, and the act of worship is the whole point. I don't think getting a vaccine is like that. Do you think a Covid vaccine is different from other vaccines in this regard?

Here's the passage, please explain how you are interpreting it.

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; it had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercises all the authority of the first beast on its behalf and compels the earth and those who live on it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. 13 It also performs great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in front of people. 14 It deceives those who live on the earth because of the signs that it is permitted to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who live on the earth to make an image of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 It was permitted to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast could both speak and cause whoever would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 And it makes everyone—small and great, rich and poor, free and slave—to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark: the beast’s name or the number of its name.

18 This calls for wisdom: Let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, because it is the number of a person. Its number is 666.

[Bootstrap]

But that is my exact point. Why do we need to see Revelations as symbolic or allegory, but not Genesis? What makes one the literal word of God and the other just allegory? The original Bronze Age audience of Genesis didn't understand modern science either.

What is the rule for determining with parts of scripture describe literal events and which are allegory? Is there one? Or is it just in the eye of the beholder?

I think you really do need to understand each passage, in context, to see what the writer intends. And often, people aren't very clear what they mean by "literal". But if you want to pursue this further, can we do it in another thread, please?

[Chris]

You need to read your last paragraph... Conditioning... It's really crazy. We've always just lived this way. But 100 years ago, not so. Some people think the Mark will be a 666 on tattoo on the right hand or forehead. The "right hand" also means "right side" in Greek. We need to see most of it as symbolic. What a man in a cave on Patmos saw. He wouldn't understand computers.

But that is my exact point. Why do we need to see Revelations as symbolic or allegory, but not Genesis? What makes one the literal word of God and the other just allegory? The original Bronze Age audience of Genesis didn't understand modern science either.

What is the rule for determining with parts of scripture describe literal events and which are allegory? Is there one? Or is it just in the eye of the beholder?

One is prophecy. The other is not. Prophecy is fulfilled when you see it in the manner that God revealed before hand.
"He was pierced for our transgressions" did not say with a spear. It could have been a chunk of rock, sharp wood, a scraggly piece of metal, etc. The prophecy was revealed to us as it was witnessed. It's to have the moments of epiphany to say "that is what God told us".

In this case we see something being pushed strongly to buy and sell with. For the first time in human history through technology this is being imposed. Never before did a "world" have a chance at doing such a thing.

[Ken]

But that is my exact point. Why do we need to see Revelations as symbolic or allegory, but not Genesis? What makes one the literal word of God and the other just allegory? The original Bronze Age audience of Genesis didn't understand modern science either.

What is the rule for determining with parts of scripture describe literal events and which are allegory? Is there one? Or is it just in the eye of the beholder?

I think you really do need to understand each passage, in context, to see what the writer intends. And often, people aren't very clear what they mean by "literal". But if you want to pursue this further, can we do it in another thread, please?

Oh, I agree. I just see no more textual evidence that the author of Revelations was speaking in allegory and the author of Genesis was not. And I'm merely commenting on the fact that we are willing to stretch the language of Revelations beyond belief to incorporate modern events and modern science like vaccines and barcodes or whatever and hand-wave away the actual presence of an actual beast. But for Genesis we are not.

[Chris]

But that is my exact point. Why do we need to see Revelations as symbolic or allegory, but not Genesis? What makes one the literal word of God and the other just allegory? The original Bronze Age audience of Genesis didn't understand modern science either.

What is the rule for determining with parts of scripture describe literal events and which are allegory? Is there one? Or is it just in the eye of the beholder?

I think you really do need to understand each passage, in context, to see what the writer intends. And often, people aren't very clear what they mean by "literal". But if you want to pursue this further, can we do it in another thread, please?

Oh, I agree. I just see no more textual evidence that the author of Revelations was speaking in allegory and the author of Genesis was not. And I'm merely commenting on the fact that we are willing to stretch the language of Revelations beyond belief to incorporate modern events and modern science like vaccines and barcodes or whatever and hand-wave away the actual presence of an actual beast. But for Genesis we are not.

Thing is though, I've been around for many numbers of years. I've never - ever - even close have seen anything like what is happening. It isn't like we just went through a bad war, or change, or etc. This is universal lies. Universal censorship. Tracking, tracing, etc. Then "you need this to buy or sell"... It's creepy as all get up. This is happening very possibly globally. Prophecy is easier to understand when you think about it - and not deny that there are evil principalities and powers / spiritual wickedness in high places.

It's hard to look up and say "yes, that's it", without denying it. There have been many predictions from various people in the world about end times. But never before did they have a mandated thing working it's way to buying/selling - globally.

Also if there is a 5% chance this is the Mark (and I believe MUCH stronger - if I had to give a number 75-80% sure), I wouldn't mess with 5%. What the passport will mean is you get to "have your life back". Remember what the scripture says about saving your life. We are supposed to hate our life. We are not to be children of the world (they are wicked).

But we never ever threaten them or cause harm (harmless as doves). We just let them harm us and God will sort it out. But we don't have to comply with evil.

[Ken]

I think you really do need to understand each passage, in context, to see what the writer intends. And often, people aren't very clear what they mean by "literal". But if you want to pursue this further, can we do it in another thread, please?

Oh, I agree. I just see no more textual evidence that the author of Revelations was speaking in allegory and the author of Genesis was not. And I'm merely commenting on the fact that we are willing to stretch the language of Revelations beyond belief to incorporate modern events and modern science like vaccines and barcodes or whatever and hand-wave away the actual presence of an actual beast. But for Genesis we are not.

Thing is though, I've been around for many numbers of years. I've never - ever - even close have seen anything like what is happening. It isn't like we just went through a bad war, or change, or etc. This is universal lies. Universal censorship. Tracking, tracing, etc. Then "you need this to buy or sell"... It's creepy as all get up. This is happening very possibly globally. Prophecy is easier to understand when you think about it - and not deny that there are evil principalities and powers / spiritual wickedness in high places.

It's hard to look up and say "yes, that's it", without denying it. There have been many predictions from various people in the world about end times. But never before did they have a mandated thing working it's way to buying/selling - globally.

Also if there is a 5% chance this is the Mark (and I believe MUCH stronger - if I had to give a number 75-80% sure), I wouldn't mess with 5%. What the passport will mean is you get to "have your life back". Remember what the scripture says about saving your life. We are supposed to hate our life. We are not to be children of the world (they are wicked).

But we never ever threaten them or cause harm (harmless as doves). We just let them harm us and God will sort it out. But we don't have to comply with evil.

I dunno. I think you could pick any other moment in history and find all same "signs" if you look hard enough. In the 1940s we had millions of people being forced to wear the star of David on their chest and getting numbers tattooed on their arms. During Roman times and the middle ages most trade was regulated by guilds who were issued letters or patents by the king or local authorities in order to do business as tanners or metalsmiths or carpenters or whatever. The penalties for conducting trade outside of your guild were harsh. Freedom of mobility and trade is far freer today than 1000 or 1500 years ago.

[Szdfan]

But that is my exact point. Why do we need to see Revelations as symbolic or allegory, but not Genesis? What makes one the literal word of God and the other just allegory? The original Bronze Age audience of Genesis didn't understand modern science either.

What is the rule for determining with parts of scripture describe literal events and which are allegory? Is there one? Or is it just in the eye of the beholder?

I think you really do need to understand each passage, in context, to see what the writer intends. And often, people aren't very clear what they mean by "literal". But if you want to pursue this further, can we do it in another thread, please?

Oh, I agree. I just see no more textual evidence that the author of Revelations was speaking in allegory and the author of Genesis was not. And I'm merely commenting on the fact that we are willing to stretch the language of Revelations beyond belief to incorporate modern events and modern science like vaccines and barcodes or whatever and hand-wave away the actual presence of an actual beast. But for Genesis we are not.

When I was in seminary, we were taught that apocalyptic literature as a genre was allegorical. That also doesn’t mean that we were to use Revelation to interpret modern day events.

[Ken]

I think you really do need to understand each passage, in context, to see what the writer intends. And often, people aren't very clear what they mean by "literal". But if you want to pursue this further, can we do it in another thread, please?

Oh, I agree. I just see no more textual evidence that the author of Revelations was speaking in allegory and the author of Genesis was not. And I'm merely commenting on the fact that we are willing to stretch the language of Revelations beyond belief to incorporate modern events and modern science like vaccines and barcodes or whatever and hand-wave away the actual presence of an actual beast. But for Genesis we are not.

When I was in seminary, we were taught that apocalyptic literature as a genre was allegorical. That also doesn’t mean that we were to use Revelation to interpret modern day events.

Yes, and when I was in college I was also taught that creation myths and epic poetry were, as a genre, allegorical as well. Whether you are talking about Homer's Odyssey and Illiad, the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Aeneid, Beowulf, or Genesis and Exodus. That we read them to gain fundamental truths about the human experience and to understand from where we come. Not for a detailed inerrant historical narrative of specific Bronze Age events.

I fully understand the traditions. But what actual textual evidence do we have to indicate that Revelations is to be read allegorically and Genesis is not?