Scientific Communities and Christian Forums

[Josh]

Most of the important training doctors get happens in residency, not in the classroom.

The same is somewhat true for nurses who also do a lot of practical experience.

The fetishisation and worship of credentials gained by sitting in a classroom taking classes unrelated to your major is kind of ridiculous. Nobody becomes a better nurse or doctor by taking, for example, a course in modern art by “oppressed” minorities (i.e. homosexuals), to take an example from a major universities’ general-education requirements.

[Heirbyadoption]

The fetishisation and worship of credentials gained by sitting in a classroom taking classes unrelated to your major is kind of ridiculous. Nobody becomes a better nurse or doctor by taking, for example, a course in modern art by “oppressed” minorities (i.e. homosexuals), to take an example from a major universities’ general-education requirements.

Josh -
I hesitate to say much on this thread because A. thou and I have gotten along so well lately, and B. I find myself increasingly in agreement with QuietlyListening's first few comments in this thread, especially after that condescendingly ignorant crack about scrapping education aimed at Bible translation and simply going to teach natives English instead...

I am honestly curious about something, however. Having been through my share of years in both community college and a state university, I actually agree with you to a certain extent that much of the required coursework is irrelevant or unnecessary toward many (though certainly not all) of the jobs which require degrees from such institutions, as on-site training is often far more educational in the long run. But to my actual question: has someone on this thread or a connected one recently endorsed or implied any sort of "fetishization [spelling anglicization mine] or worship of credentials" such as you mentioned, or is that just a "straw man" argument...?

Honestly, the only thing I've seen here are folks suggesting, whether you agree with them or not, that they believe differently than you that there is valuable knowledge and training to be gained within the higher educational system. Did I miss something in the thread or are you simply taking the opportunity to express your opinion on what you believe to be the detrimentality and lack of necessity for formal higher education, and using a hypothetical premise (on the part of others) to back your position up?

[ABC 123]

The fetishisation and worship of credentials gained by sitting in a classroom taking classes unrelated to your major is kind of ridiculous. Nobody becomes a better nurse or doctor by taking, for example, a course in modern art by “oppressed” minorities (i.e. homosexuals), to take an example from a major universities’ general-education requirements.

Josh -
I hesitate to say much on this thread because A. thou and I have gotten along so well lately, and B. I find myself increasingly in agreement with QuietlyListening's first few comments in this thread, especially after that condescendingly ignorant crack about scrapping education aimed at Bible translation and simply going to teach natives English instead...

I am honestly curious about something, however. Having been through my share of years in both community college and a state university, I actually agree with you to a certain extent that much of the required coursework is irrelevant or unnecessary toward many (though certainly not all) of the jobs which require degrees from such institutions, as on-site training is often far more educational in the long run. But to my actual question: has someone on this thread or a connected one recently endorsed or implied any sort of "fetishization [spelling anglicization mine] or worship of credentials" such as you mentioned, or is that just a "straw man" argument...?

Honestly, the only thing I've seen here are folks suggesting, whether you agree with them or not, that they believe differently than you that there is valuable knowledge and training to be gained within the higher educational system. Did I miss something in the thread or are you simply taking the opportunity to express your opinion on what you believe to be the detrimentality and lack of necessity for formal higher education, and using a hypothetical premise (on the part of others) to back your position up?

This is very tactfully worded.

Josh, you come off as hostile and condescending in many, many threads including this one.

[Ken]

The average young person today will go through 17 different jobs and an average of 5 different careers during the course of their life (I may have gotten the exact number wrong, but it is something like that if you want to look it up). And at some point, most current high school and college students will end up working in jobs that haven’t even been invented yet.

So, one really does need to ask, is the best use of high school and college to train students for the specific jobs and careers of the last decade or before? Or perhaps instead to train them in in the critical thinking, communication, analytical, and creative skills that will actually be portable in a new economy?

We actually need both. It is important to train nurses and programmers and aircraft mechanics, etc. in the technical skills necessary to do their jobs as they exist today. But it is equally important to equip them with the skills to be successful in their next career, and the one after that. That is what a well-rounded education is all about. And yes, it includes things like history, literature, the humanities, and other subjects that have nothing to do with the narrow technical field that a student might be currently pursuing. I’ve been in science and science education my entire life. But some of the most useful classes I ever took in college were humanities classes that actually taught me how to think critically, express my thoughts, and write in an organized manner.

[Josh]

I hesitate to say much on this thread because A. thou and I have gotten along so well lately, and B. I find myself increasingly in agreement with QuietlyListening's first few comments in this thread, especially after that condescendingly ignorant crack about scrapping education aimed at Bible translation and simply going to teach natives English instead...

I realise Bible translation is a sacred cow, but almost any discussion of something challenging the status quo ends up with an appeal to emotions like that. "We have to send Christians to universities so that we can translate the Bible to some obscure language!" It's not a valid argument, and yes, my personality and my behaviour on this forum is that I don't worship sacred cows. I realise this bothers a lot of people.

This is no different than when I challenge if it really is right for some Christians to have collect millions of dollars in wealth, and you can almost guarantee a canned response of "Wealthy Christians are good because they donate lots of money to missions / charities / Bible translation / some other worthy cause". Basically, the ends justify almost any means.

I am honestly curious about something, however. Having been through my share of years in both community college and a state university, I actually agree with you to a certain extent that much of the required coursework is irrelevant or unnecessary toward many (though certainly not all) of the jobs which require degrees from such institutions, as on-site training is often far more educational in the long run. But to my actual question: has someone on this thread or a connected one recently endorsed or implied any sort of "fetishization [spelling anglicization mine] or worship of credentials" such as you mentioned, or is that just a "straw man" argument...?

It is my opinion that many people have an undeservingly high amount of respect for credentials. (This is actually the opinion of a lot of academics, too, which is where I got this opinion from in the first place, so maybe I also listen to too many people with Ph.Ds.)

I think this thread has not had quite open credentialism, but Bootstrap's original arguments basically amount to that we should only listen to people with lots of credentials. I categorically disagree with that.

Honestly, the only thing I've seen here are folks suggesting, whether you agree with them or not, that they believe differently than you that there is valuable knowledge and training to be gained within the higher educational system. Did I miss something in the thread or are you simply taking the opportunity to express your opinion on what you believe to be the detrimentality and lack of necessity for formal higher education, and using a hypothetical premise (on the part of others) to back your position up?

I do not think the university system offers much of value in "knowledge and training". Almost all of this happens outside the formal tertiary education system. (Often, a discussion like this will get confused with what is vocational training, which does offer quite a bit of "knowledge and training".) The formal, four-year bachelor's degree is mostly focused on imparting philosophy and worldview. In a more technical degree like a BSN, most of the experience a nurse in training learns is on-the-job, not in the classroom.

The higher education system portrays itself as basically the only way to get knowledge and training. I disagree with this fundamental premise, because I think truth is found in following Jesus, in the Bible, and in the body of believers known as the church. I don't think truth or wisdom is found in the highly anti-Christ university system. Any "knowledge" gained there is inherently tainted.

[steve-in-kville]

I’ve been in science and science education my entire life. But some of the most useful classes I ever took in college were humanities classes that actually taught me how to think critically, express my thoughts, and write in an organized manner.

This is interesting, Ken. Would you recommend taking those types of classes to the up and coming college students today?

[Josh]

So, one really does need to ask, is the best use of high school and college to train students for the specific jobs and careers of the last decade or before? Or perhaps instead to train them in in the critical thinking, communication, analytical, and creative skills that will actually be portable in a new economy?

High school is also a waste of time, and was invented to keep children of Irish immigrants off the street and to quit engaging in criminal behaviour. Education in America used to end at 8th grade (and at 6th grade before that). There is no significant difference in outcomes for people with 8th grade Mennonite educations vs a standard public-school 12th grade education; if anything, Mennonites seem to be doing better and be wealthier than their neighbours, to the point the contrast in wealth and career options becomes a spiritual challenge.

And yes, it includes things like history, literature, the humanities, and other subjects that have nothing to do with the narrow technical field that a student might be currently pursuing.

This is an extremely American assumption, and education doesn't work like this elsewhere in the world, including in places like Germany and Australia (although there is a trend of starting American-style universities, such as the failed Central European University in Hungary). Nobody "needs" to learn "the humanities". A typical 4 year degree spends 2+ years of classroom time on non-core topics, and ends up just being an avenue to promote ideology, politics, and worldly philosophies. No Christian has anything to gain from spending 2 years sitting in classrooms about why Christianity is wrong.

I’ve been in science and science education my entire life. But some of the most useful classes I ever took in college were humanities classes that actually taught me how to think critically, express my thoughts, and write in an organized manner.

I find the idea someone needs a college class to "think critically" to be puzzling. That's a skill that must be learned much earlier in life. The same goes for expressing one's thoughts and writing in an organised manner. I was expected to write in an organised manner by around 4th grade.

Perhaps the real problem here is that the current, failing public school system doesn't teach any of these things, and so no real education happens until high school is over. It's rather telling that a place like Detroit has functional illiteracy affecting over half of the population. What on earth is going on in public schools?

[justme]

High school is also a waste of time, and was invented to keep children of Irish immigrants off the street and to quit engaging in criminal behaviour.

now that is information that i have never heard before.
i find that a bit hard to believe

[mike]

In a more technical degree like a BSN, most of the experience a nurse in training learns is on-the-job, not in the classroom.

Even technical degrees and certifications sometimes don't reflect actual real-world skills rather than test-taking abilities. My son is working in an auto body shop, where he got a job out of high school with no credentials other than a desire to do auto body work. He was hired on as a reconditioning tech, essentially washing out finished cars. A year later, he is now earning a certified tech pay scale with productivity bonuses, without ever having gotten a certification (the shop suggested they would get him certified at some point, but essentially he has been too busy working to take the online schooling, and now there's not as much reason to).

In contrast, the shop has had an employee join recently with a recent two-year degree from a local tech school and an industry accepted certificate in auto body work, and a large student loan to pay off. He was originally hired as a body tech with pay matching his level of certification, but was so unqualified to do the job at any level that he has been demoted to the same position where my son started. My son was telling me yesterday that he needed to train him to run a stud gun properly, a basic skill he should have learned in tech school.

Still, I don't agree with throwing out university learning. There are some things that simply require a high level of attained knowledge and information for which on-the-job learning is no substitute.

[steve-in-kville]

High school is also a waste of time, and was invented to keep children of Irish immigrants off the street and to quit engaging in criminal behaviour. Education in America used to end at 8th grade (and at 6th grade before that). There is no significant difference in outcomes for people with 8th grade Mennonite educations vs a standard public-school 12th grade education; if anything, Mennonites seem to be doing better and be wealthier than their neighbours, to the point the contrast in wealth and career options becomes a spiritual challenge.

I see your angle, but HS does a lot to teach important social skills, such as- you may not always be accepted by everyone in life, you will not always get what you want, and it forms bonds that can last a lifetime. In a sense, it toughens you up for adult living. To that end, and you may question my ability to do this, but I can smell a mennonite 8th grade education a mile away just by their maturity and how they interact in adult life. I can do the same with homeschooler's, too.

Its a gift I have. I'm a special snowflake