Natural (God given) immunity is superior

[nett]

This thread is pretty off the wall. Is there still anyone who disputes that natural COVID immunity is superior to vaccinated immunity? Boostrap said he "wasn't convinced" it was, before Wayne accused me of lying.

I'd like to get back to where we were. Boot, are you still not convinced? I posted a large number of studies that had conclusive results. If you aren't convinced, I'd like to see your counter-studies that either dispute or refute the studies I posted.

Thanks, I appreciate you bringing us back on track.

So far, I'm not convinced that natural Covid immunity is superior to vaccines. First, way too many people die if they get Covid, the whole point is to avoid death, and these deaths occur primarily for people who are not vaccinated and have not had Covid yet. Second, people have very different immune responses to catching Covid and studies are showing different results. Vaccines have a much more predictable response, most people respond the same way. The greatest immunity to Covid seems to be people who have had both the vaccines and a case of Covid.

What do deaths in unvaccinated, first-time injected populations mean? That's unrelated to the question at hand.

Vaccines do have a more predictable response. They wane to 16% efficacy after 6 months..

The question was never whether COVID infection vs COVID infection + vaccine was superior. That's moving the goalposts.

But it's still early, and different studies have shown different results.

This article is an overview from an interview on June 31st, it matches my current understanding - I should look for a more recent literature review or interview on this level. This article discusses the differences between natural and vaccine immunity at a helpful level:

How long does covid-19 immunity last?

How does natural immunity compare with vaccine induced immunity?
Various studies have shown that an immune response involving memory T and B cells emerges after covid-19 infection.11 But people’s immune systems tend to respond in very different ways to natural infection,12 notes Eleanor Riley, professor of immunology and infectious disease at the University of Edinburgh. “The immune response after vaccination is much more homogenous,” she says, adding that most people generally have a really good response after vaccination. Data from the clinical trials of the leading vaccine candidates have found T and B cell reactivity.13

Does vaccination make a difference to those who have already had covid-19?
There is some evidence that vaccination can sharpen immunity in people who have previously been infected with SARS-CoV-2 and recovered. A letter published in the Lancet in March discussed an experiment in which 51 healthcare workers in London were given a single dose of the Pfizer vaccine. Half of the healthcare workers had previously recovered from covid-19 and it was they who experienced the greatest boost in antibodies—more than 140-fold from peak pre-vaccine levels—against the virus’s spike protein.14

I don't really care what studies of immune response say at this point, because we now have empirical data, albeit from other countries, since the CDC is dead-set against tracking COVID in vaccinated folks.

It's clear that the scientific expectation about how immune response would lead to immunity was wrong. Vaccinated people continue to have good antibody numbers against the spike protein after 6 months (the pharma trials showed this), but empirically, they are almost unprotected. This was missed, because the pharma trials stopped looking at controlled efficacy after 6 months.

I posted a lot of purely empirical studies that have shown that naturally immune people (those who have been infected) are at worst 13x less likely to be infected, and at worst 27x less likely to have a sever case than vaccinated people. Reinfection is so rare, that in studies of 1000s of people, it took quite a while to get to statistically significant reinfection numbers so that they could be quantified. And there is a still a possibility that reinfection is much lower, due to the risk of false positives.

The Cleveland had the most thorough comprehensive study due to their robust testing process, and they found reinfection risk was 0% with natural immunity.

Without moving the goalposts, I'd like an answer to the basic question here.

Which is superior, natural immunity (via prior infection), or vaccination?

[RZehr]

Death is an outcome as well.

Wayne’s last post.