Literacy Rates of High School Graduates

[Ken]

I am for thoughtful educational accountability and just like contractors that build poorly are fined/punished so also should schools be that fail to educate. But regarding values, world views, etc - less interference is better I think.

That said, I don't think it is "public" money. It is taxpayers money. They ought to be able to individually choose how they want to spend it.

The majority of public school students in this country live in poor families that largely pay no income tax and are not homeowners so pay no property tax.

So yes, a widespread public voucher system for education would be a massive redistribution of public dollars. A simple tax refund for educational purposes (giving your own money back to you) would only benefit the upper middle class and wealthy.

[joshuabgood]

I am for thoughtful educational accountability and just like contractors that build poorly are fined/punished so also should schools be that fail to educate. But regarding values, world views, etc - less interference is better I think.

That said, I don't think it is "public" money. It is taxpayers money. They ought to be able to individually choose how they want to spend it.

The majority of public school students in this country live in poor families that largely pay no income tax and are not homeowners so pay no property tax.

So yes, a widespread public voucher system for education would be a massive redistribution of public dollars. A simple tax refund for educational purposes (giving your own money back to you) would only benefit the upper middle class and wealthy.

Even if you rent you pay property tax. In most localities investment house property taxes are much higher. That cost is figured into the rent payments. I myself once owned two rental properties and that tax cost I passed along to the tenants. You have to. So I disagree that renters don't pay property taxes.

[PeterG]

Where I am with Josh - a big step the right direction is a pure voucher system. Belgium for instance has a such a system since 1958. End the monopoly.

In Belgium, private schools and even home schooling is highly regulated and education is compulsory through HS. I doubt many Menno schools would welcome the degree of state oversight that comes with accepting vouchers in a country like Belgium. Just to cite one example, any private school teachers or administrators using corporal punishment would quickly find themselves behind bars.

I don't disagree with you. But with accepting public money comes public accountability. To cite your Belgium example, I'm pretty sure that private schools that take public money are prohibited from discriminating against both LGBT students and staff. Is that something Menno schools are going to accept in order to get public vouchers?

This is an extremely important point. There would be a lot of good things about a voucher system. But I would want my school to be fully prepared to leave the money on the table the instant that there would be any strings attached that would cause us to violate our values.

[Ken]

I am for thoughtful educational accountability and just like contractors that build poorly are fined/punished so also should schools be that fail to educate. But regarding values, world views, etc - less interference is better I think.

That said, I don't think it is "public" money. It is taxpayers money. They ought to be able to individually choose how they want to spend it.

The majority of public school students in this country live in poor families that largely pay no income tax and are not homeowners so pay no property tax.

So yes, a widespread public voucher system for education would be a massive redistribution of public dollars. A simple tax refund for educational purposes (giving your own money back to you) would only benefit the upper middle class and wealthy.

Even if you rent you pay property tax. In most localities investment house property taxes are much higher. That cost is figured into the rent payments. I myself once owned two rental properties and that tax cost I passed along to the tenants. You have to. So I disagree that renters don't pay property taxes.

Only very indirectly. For example:

Property #1 is an apartment building owned by a little old lady who inherited it from her father who built it in 1950. She owns it free and clear and has a son who does most of the property maintenance for free in anticipation of inheriting the place.

Property #2 across the street is a similar apartment building owned by investors who just bought the place with a $10 million mortgage. It is maintained by an expensive property management firm because the investors live out of state.

Are the rents in these two different apartment buildings going to vary by 1000% because the operating costs for each building are 1000% different? Or are they both going to charge the market rate regardless of their individual cost structures?

Rents are determined by the housing market in your area. Not by itemizing your own individual costs and then adding a profit margin on top. You might be able to completely recoup your property taxes through your rents and pocket an additional 50% profit. Or you might lose money every month. The market doesn't care.

[joshuabgood]

Where I am with Josh - a big step the right direction is a pure voucher system. Belgium for instance has a such a system since 1958. End the monopoly.

In Belgium, private schools and even home schooling is highly regulated and education is compulsory through HS. I doubt many Menno schools would welcome the degree of state oversight that comes with accepting vouchers in a country like Belgium. Just to cite one example, any private school teachers or administrators using corporal punishment would quickly find themselves behind bars.

I don't disagree with you. But with accepting public money comes public accountability. To cite your Belgium example, I'm pretty sure that private schools that take public money are prohibited from discriminating against both LGBT students and staff. Is that something Menno schools are going to accept in order to get public vouchers?

This is an extremely important point. There would be a lot of good things about a voucher system. But I would want my school to be fully prepared to leave the money on the table the instant that there would be any strings attached that would cause us to violate our values.

I agree. But our businesses get licenses to practice construction, or retail, or food prep. So I think a system also licensing schools could work.

Ken, I am pretty sure the Catholic schools in Belgium receive the vouchers and wouldn't fit the LGBTQ bill of the secular schools.

[Sliceitup]

I see some disdain towards the need for people to gain advanced degrees but I personally am very grateful for those who have done the work, and my family has benefited from that work. And as JBG mentions, they are often paid far less than they should be paid by the CA community.

Having several children with varied educational needs, we’ve found a local anabaptist school psychologist with a masters degree to be very helpful.

[Ken]

In Belgium, private schools and even home schooling is highly regulated and education is compulsory through HS. I doubt many Menno schools would welcome the degree of state oversight that comes with accepting vouchers in a country like Belgium. Just to cite one example, any private school teachers or administrators using corporal punishment would quickly find themselves behind bars.

I don't disagree with you. But with accepting public money comes public accountability. To cite your Belgium example, I'm pretty sure that private schools that take public money are prohibited from discriminating against both LGBT students and staff. Is that something Menno schools are going to accept in order to get public vouchers?

This is an extremely important point. There would be a lot of good things about a voucher system. But I would want my school to be fully prepared to leave the money on the table the instant that there would be any strings attached that would cause us to violate our values.

I agree. But our businesses get licenses to practice construction, or retail, or food prep. So I think a system also licensing schools could work.

Ken, I am pretty sure the Catholic schools in Belgium receive the vouchers and wouldn't fit the LGBTQ bill of the secular schools.

Are you sure about that? I'm almost positive that private schools in Belgium, including Catholic schools are prohibited from discriminating against or firing teachers because they are gay or LGBT as is commonly done here in the US.

[Josh]

I value education including early childhood ed degrees. Personally, I wouldn't want my children, of which I have three, taught by an 18 year-old out of high school. Teaching children is a skill that takes years to fully realize. I also wouldn't want an 18 straight out of high school kid to be my pastor or my mechanic. I want experienced professionals.

I would happily have an 18 year old work as a mechanic, although I wouldn't want an 18 year old straight out of high school. I'd want want who has been working or apprenticing for 3-4 years.

An 18 year old teacher sounds just right for teaching kindergarten, first grade, second grade, but some have even done very well with upper grades. We enjoy welcoming new teachers to our congregation and then mentoring them through their first year. Every teacher was a first year teacher at some point, and there's no better way to learn than by doing.

The fact that the profession in some circles doesn't support a true professional is sad. And it comes with its own cost.

As Conservative Anabaptists, we have a sceptical view of the "professions" and "professionalism".

I'd like my children to have access to learning opportunities like real labs. And as a somewhat accomplished guitar player, a $50 dollar guitar is worthless.

A $50 dollar guitar is not worthless, but let's up the budget to a $100 guitar. A $100 guitar is adequate for learning - and often for playing. I say this as a somewhat accomplished former custom guitar shop owner (obviously we preferred to sell $5,000 guitars, not $100 guitars, but there really isn't much difference for children who are learning).

There is no need for many thousands of dollars spent on expensive brass instruments. The most valuable instrument is included for free with nearly every child, and the only expenses needed is a few songbooks.

In short, I wanted to be able to use whatever gifts and skills God gave me around education and leadership, in a way to serve my people by helping to build a high quality professional CA school where children are intentionally discipled in the way of Jesus. Needless to say I walked away from job/salary that would have enabled me to live a really nice life. I'd be lying if there weren't times when that is still hard in a sense when I see what others seem to enjoy.

Thanks to the goodness of God, not because I am smart, I happened to buy a house in Brooklyn in the downturn of 2009, and sold on the upturn in 2015. This positioned me to be able to pay cash for a 1986 cape cod house here in a development and live comfortably albeit, relatively plainly, as a school CA school leader. As for the public school world, I enjoyed my time there and learned a lot about leadership, education, etc. My life is much richer for having worked alongside many professionals, great leaders, and educators. Still, the foundation was not Jesus Christ and so there were always some pieces missing.

In the last 6 years I am so proud (in a good way) of what our community has accomplished. We are College Board approved to offer AP courses, PSAT/SAT exams, CLEP tests, etc. We have full accreditation from MSA and highly functioning professional teacher teams. We provide a range of guidance and counseling services along with a 6 person team or so of Learning Support specialists. We work with all students and have become known as a school that will take students with difficult histories, with trauma, and with tough emotional disturbances. We of course aren't perfect, but God has really moved in our community.

In other words, destroy a conservative Mennonite school and turn it into an expensive, overpriced private school that is simply a mirror of the same kind of public school you find in a wealthy school district.

It begs the question why not just use Lancaster Mennonite School or one of the many other liberal Mennonite schools in the area that already have accomplished exactly the direction you're trying to take your school in.

[Sliceitup]

I value education including early childhood ed degrees. Personally, I wouldn't want my children, of which I have three, taught by an 18 year-old out of high school. Teaching children is a skill that takes years to fully realize. I also wouldn't want an 18 straight out of high school kid to be my pastor or my mechanic. I want experienced professionals.

I would happily have an 18 year old work as a mechanic, although I wouldn't want an 18 year old straight out of high school. I'd want want who has been working or apprenticing for 3-4 years.

An 18 year old teacher sounds just right for teaching kindergarten, first grade, second grade, but some have even done very well with upper grades. We enjoy welcoming new teachers to our congregation and then mentoring them through their first year. Every teacher was a first year teacher at some point, and there's no better way to learn than by doing.

The fact that the profession in some circles doesn't support a true professional is sad. And it comes with its own cost.

As Conservative Anabaptists, we have a sceptical view of the "professions" and "professionalism".

I'd like my children to have access to learning opportunities like real labs. And as a somewhat accomplished guitar player, a $50 dollar guitar is worthless.

A $50 dollar guitar is not worthless, but let's up the budget to a $100 guitar. A $100 guitar is adequate for learning - and often for playing. I say this as a somewhat accomplished former custom guitar shop owner (obviously we preferred to sell $5,000 guitars, not $100 guitars, but there really isn't much difference for children who are learning).

There is no need for many thousands of dollars spent on expensive brass instruments. The most valuable instrument is included for free with nearly every child, and the only expenses needed is a few songbooks.

In short, I wanted to be able to use whatever gifts and skills God gave me around education and leadership, in a way to serve my people by helping to build a high quality professional CA school where children are intentionally discipled in the way of Jesus. Needless to say I walked away from job/salary that would have enabled me to live a really nice life. I'd be lying if there weren't times when that is still hard in a sense when I see what others seem to enjoy.

Thanks to the goodness of God, not because I am smart, I happened to buy a house in Brooklyn in the downturn of 2009, and sold on the upturn in 2015. This positioned me to be able to pay cash for a 1986 cape cod house here in a development and live comfortably albeit, relatively plainly, as a school CA school leader. As for the public school world, I enjoyed my time there and learned a lot about leadership, education, etc. My life is much richer for having worked alongside many professionals, great leaders, and educators. Still, the foundation was not Jesus Christ and so there were always some pieces missing.

In the last 6 years I am so proud (in a good way) of what our community has accomplished. We are College Board approved to offer AP courses, PSAT/SAT exams, CLEP tests, etc. We have full accreditation from MSA and highly functioning professional teacher teams. We provide a range of guidance and counseling services along with a 6 person team or so of Learning Support specialists. We work with all students and have become known as a school that will take students with difficult histories, with trauma, and with tough emotional disturbances. We of course aren't perfect, but God has really moved in our community.

In other words, destroy a conservative Mennonite school and turn it into an expensive, overpriced private school that is simply a mirror of the same kind of public school you find in a wealthy school district.

It begs the question why not just use Lancaster Mennonite School or one of the many other liberal Mennonite schools in the area that already have accomplished exactly the direction you're trying to take your school in.

What specifically about JBG’s description of his school do you find to be problematic?

[joshuabgood]

In other words, destroy a conservative Mennonite school and turn it into an expensive, overpriced private school that is simply a mirror of the same kind of public school you find in a wealthy school district.

It begs the question why not just use Lancaster Mennonite School or one of the many other liberal Mennonite schools in the area that already have accomplished exactly the direction you're trying to take your school in.

Well...our belief is that the CA vision has nothing to fear from education and professionalism. Suffice it to say our views on everything from sexual ethics to veilings are in a vastly different spot from LMS.

I don't think the board, to whom I report and whom hired me, desires to destroy the school...and neither do I. I do think it is an open question yet to what extent the CA world is fully behind valuing a high quality professional education. Sattler College is exploring this angle as well methinks...

Lastly, I also value brass instruments and other stringed instruments. We had some students taking brass lessons and violin family lessons also. I have a vision of an EMS CA orchestra.