Excommunication / Shunning / The Ban

[nett]

In my understanding, voluntarily choosing to follow one's understanding of scripture is the core of Anabaptism. When it is made a social force to make generations conform to past cultural practices I think Anabaptism has abandoned its roots.

That said, the New Testament does teach expelling the unrepentant sinner from the church. Most churches seem reluctant to practice this.

Continuity of practice is required for humans to bond and form a healthy community. If you're following your churches traditions, you're following some other system's tradition. in the case of the 99% of the mainstream church, they will end up conforming to the world's traditions. which are aligned against God.

[Joy]

In my understanding, voluntarily choosing to follow one's understanding of scripture is the core of Anabaptism. When it is made a social force to make generations conform to past cultural practices I think Anabaptism has abandoned its roots.

That said, the New Testament does teach expelling the unrepentant sinner from the church. Most churches seem reluctant to practice this.

Continuity of practice is required for humans to bond and form a healthy community. If you're following your churches traditions, you're following some other system's tradition. in the case of the 99% of the mainstream church, they will end up conforming to the world's traditions. which are aligned against God.

Wow, that's a blanket condemnation. Wonder if God agrees.

[nett]

Wow, that's a blanket condemnation. Wonder if God agrees.

I would say it's an observation, not a condemnation. Do you believe God is pleased with the mainline churches in the west, do they represent his spotless bride?

[Sudsy]

'Being more worldly' was what Jesus was accused of being. He didn't follow the church rules and holiness standards of the religious elite. I think defining what is 'worldly' can easily be a drift also to Christian practise that can be quite a stretch to biblical text.

Some have gone the 'more conservative' (my upbringing) route and the spiritual benefits of this lifestyle was experienced as an unfulfilling life and one their heart was not into living. They felt not in the chains of sin but under the chains of religion. Others experienced a life where they enjoyed serving the Lord more than the attractions of the world. So, for those who leave it is a new sense of freedom but then is that all it is. Perhaps they have never been born again

Well, I'll, break off at this point as my computer is running low.

I think it's pretty obvious when you observe people's behavior after leaving a conservative church, what their desire in leaving was.

I didn't really understand your 2nd paragraph. Are you saying those who leave were never born again?

Regarding my second paragraph, l'll try to clarify. I have witnessed those who leave a 'conservative church' because they had to follow the teachings and requirements of that church to belong and had no personal, born again relationship with God. Since their habit is to be part of a church family, they move to a less conservative church and experience a new freedom to not have to live under certain rules and expectations but this doesn't mean they have now or ever have been born again. When not born again, they are in a new setting that appeals more to their carnal nature.

In the MB church I attended, some who came out of more conservative churches, although continuing to come to church on Sundays and get their children involved in kids programs, don't show much indication that their living is for the Lord. But I also heard testimonies and saw life changes from some that they no longer serve the Lord out of obligation but rather out of desire that God has placed in their hearts. They may not live according to rules of their past church life, yet their walk with the Lord is quite obvious as a real and meaningful relationship with God.

So, I see some that leave more conservative churches for less conservative churches that were not born again in their previous church. In the MB church I attended we had new attendees from more liberal churches that also had not experienced the new birth and some became born again whereas others had not shown signs of that change in their heart even after attending for some time.

One can be as 'unsaved' in a conservative church as one can be in a liberal church. Sometimes we can make quick judgements on who is trying to serve the Lord and who is not. We all grow spiritually in our personal relationship with God and our level of sanctification will vary by our spiritual maturity. We might be very shocked if we could see the heart of others as God does. Fruit takes time to mature but it first must be connected to the vine.

Don't know if that helps or not but glad to pursue further.

[nett]

Regarding my second paragraph, l'll try to clarify. I have witnessed those who leave a 'conservative church' because they had to follow the teachings and requirements of that church to belong and had no personal, born again relationship with God. Since their habit is to be part of a church family, they move to a less conservative church and experience a new freedom to not have to live under certain rules and expectations but this doesn't mean they have now or ever have been born again. When not born again, they are in a new setting that appeals more to their carnal nature.

In the MB church I attended, some who came out of more conservative churches, although continuing to come to church on Sundays and get their children involved in kids programs, don't show much indication that their living is for the Lord. But I also heard testimonies and saw life changes from some that they no longer serve the Lord out of obligation but rather out of desire that God has placed in their hearts. They may not live according to rules of their past church life, yet their walk with the Lord is quite obvious as a real and meaningful relationship with God.

So, I see some that leave more conservative churches for less conservative churches that were not born again in their previous church. In the MB church I attended we had new attendees from more liberal churches that also had not experienced the new birth and some became born again whereas others had not shown signs of that change in their heart even after attending for some time.

One can be as 'unsaved' in a conservative church as one can be in a liberal church. Sometimes we can make quick judgements on who is trying to serve the Lord and who is not. We all grow spiritually in our personal relationship with God and our level of sanctification will vary by our spiritual maturity. We might be very shocked if we could see the heart of others as God does. Fruit takes time to mature but it first must be connected to the vine.

Don't know if that helps or not but glad to pursue further.

I see what you're getting at, from my perspective that accounts for a very small number of drifters in my community. I would say the vast majority are born again, and have a desire to follow God. As younger people they struggle with carnality, an increasing problem as the rules are rarely adjusted quickly enough to fend off cultural rot. The guilt and shame for their vices is suddenly relieved when this other church tells them that all the things they know they shouldn't be doing are completely fine, because salvation is purely based on where your "heart" is, and anyone who teaches otherwise is legalistic.

I think due to protestant gnostic influence, a lot of people have forgotten that young minds often don't make good decisions on their own, and to a LARGE extent need to be told what to do, and protected from things that they don't understand. I don't let my 1 y/o go up the stairs. Is that because I'm legalistic? Is his heart in the wrong place?

I wouldn't let a 16 y/o boy have access to the internet under any circumstances, is that because I'm legalistic, or because his heart is in the wrong place? Is it because he's not born again? I don't think so.

I wouldn't let my children casually use heroin, is that because I'm legalistic, or their heart is in the wrong place?

I don't let my kids eat a steady diet of candy...

I could on and on and on.

These are not really extreme examples compared to what the mainstream culture is offering. Social media, the internet, television, movies, advertising in food, fashion and other material things, along with the "news" are all designed to be extremely addicting in their own ways, the majority of young minds are simply not able to make good decisions about what they consume when faced with these powerful influences, and they need a constant upright example from the more mature, and strict boundaries in place to allow them to develop mental and spiritual strength.

Things are made significantly worse when the older folks don't understand how bad it is for younger people who grew up under all the dark influence of these things. I've had quite a few older ministers tell me that that the internet is fine, if you choose to look at porn, it's because your heart is in the wrong place, and they simply "know what they shouldn't be looking at". That's a rotten answer, and demonstrates a lack of care for what's happening to younger people.

[JimFoxvog]

Continuity of practice is required for humans to bond and form a healthy community. If you're following your churches traditions, you're following some other system's tradition. in the case of the 99% of the mainstream church, they will end up conforming to the world's traditions. which are aligned against God.

What if you want to follow the traditions of the church described in the New Testament? Raising hands in prayer, prophets speaking, or wearing the clothes they wore then and there? What if people in the church come from different traditions? Might not respecting others who do things differently be an important part of a healthy community?

[Soloist]

What if you want to follow the traditions of the church described in the New Testament? Raising hands in prayer, prophets speaking, or wearing the clothes they wore then and there? What if people in the church come from different traditions? Might not respecting others who do things differently be an important part of a healthy community?

I'm still hunting for a church that wouldn't care if I wore robes.

[JimFoxvog]

I'm still hunting for a church that wouldn't care if I wore robes.

A church shouldn't care! I think many would be accepting of a foreign visitor in traditional dress--even if the man's clothing is a dress by our standards.

Conforming to this world's standards or even to what's common in a congregation should not be expected, in my opinion. Following clear biblical standards are what should count. Finding a congregation that would allow a man in a biblical tunic as a member but not allow a man living in adultery could be hard.

[Soloist]

I'm still hunting for a church that wouldn't care if I wore robes.

A church shouldn't care! I think many would be accepting of a foreign visitor in traditional dress--even if the man's clothing is a dress by our standards.

Conforming to this world's standards or even to what's common in a congregation should not be expected, in my opinion. Following clear biblical standards are what should count. Finding a congregation that would allow a man in a biblical tunic as a member but not allow a man living in adultery could be hard.

Accept yes for visiting. It gets a little strange to continue wearing your cultural clothes in another country and expecting them to act as though you are one with them. We adopt the culture around us and this is Biblical and I personally believe if it can be modest, we should adopt it to reach those we try to reach. Missionaries who expect the convert to dress just like them... well... I disagree. If the culture isn't modest, we need to help them there, but otherwise it should be their culture.

[Sudsy]

Regarding my second paragraph, l'll try to clarify. I have witnessed those who leave a 'conservative church' because they had to follow the teachings and requirements of that church to belong and had no personal, born again relationship with God. Since their habit is to be part of a church family, they move to a less conservative church and experience a new freedom to not have to live under certain rules and expectations but this doesn't mean they have now or ever have been born again. When not born again, they are in a new setting that appeals more to their carnal nature.

In the MB church I attended, some who came out of more conservative churches, although continuing to come to church on Sundays and get their children involved in kids programs, don't show much indication that their living is for the Lord. But I also heard testimonies and saw life changes from some that they no longer serve the Lord out of obligation but rather out of desire that God has placed in their hearts. They may not live according to rules of their past church life, yet their walk with the Lord is quite obvious as a real and meaningful relationship with God.

So, I see some that leave more conservative churches for less conservative churches that were not born again in their previous church. In the MB church I attended we had new attendees from more liberal churches that also had not experienced the new birth and some became born again whereas others had not shown signs of that change in their heart even after attending for some time.

One can be as 'unsaved' in a conservative church as one can be in a liberal church. Sometimes we can make quick judgements on who is trying to serve the Lord and who is not. We all grow spiritually in our personal relationship with God and our level of sanctification will vary by our spiritual maturity. We might be very shocked if we could see the heart of others as God does. Fruit takes time to mature but it first must be connected to the vine.

Don't know if that helps or not but glad to pursue further.

I see what you're getting at, from my perspective that accounts for a very small number of drifters in my community. I would say the vast majority are born again, and have a desire to follow God. As younger people they struggle with carnality, an increasing problem as the rules are rarely adjusted quickly enough to fend off cultural rot. The guilt and shame for their vices is suddenly relieved when this other church tells them that all the things they know they shouldn't be doing are completely fine, because salvation is purely based on where your "heart" is, and anyone who teaches otherwise is legalistic.

I think due to protestant gnostic influence, a lot of people have forgotten that young minds often don't make good decisions on their own, and to a LARGE extent need to be told what to do, and protected from things that they don't understand. I don't let my 1 y/o go up the stairs. Is that because I'm legalistic? Is his heart in the wrong place?

I wouldn't let a 16 y/o boy have access to the internet under any circumstances, is that because I'm legalistic, or because his heart is in the wrong place? Is it because he's not born again? I don't think so.

I wouldn't let my children casually use heroin, is that because I'm legalistic, or their heart is in the wrong place?

I don't let my kids eat a steady diet of candy...

I could on and on and on.

As long as children are living under their parents roof, the parents (within the laws of the land) can and should make the rules to follow. This is not being legalistic if that term is used as an opposite to live as you please. Salvation is a 'heart issue' and it is also a 'sin issue'. Some sins are spelled out more clearly in scripture (i.e. murder, adultery, idolatry, slander, lust, hatred) while others are more interpretive to where one crosses the line into sin (i.e. modesty, simple living, giving). I don't think we are perfect judges of when we are sinning and that is why we need the Holy Spirit guiding us. Freedom in Christ is not a license to sin but what you think is sinful is something I may not understand as sinful and vice versa. We each will account someday for what we have been convicted is sin and how we dealt with it.


These are not really extreme examples compared to what the mainstream culture is offering. Social media, the internet, television, movies, advertising in food, fashion and other material things, along with the "news" are all designed to be extremely addicting in their own ways, the majority of young minds are simply not able to make good decisions about what they consume when faced with these powerful influences, and they need a constant upright example from the more mature, and strict boundaries in place to allow them to develop mental and spiritual strength.

I will agree with the good example by mature Christians but it depends on what you are referring to by 'strict boundaries in place'. If we are talking of children in the home, then yes they need boundaries. Once out of the home, they need personal convictions to establish their own home boundaries. If these are boundaries established by the local church, then if it is a problem to adhere to these, they need to move elsewhere for fellowship.

Things are made significantly worse when the older folks don't understand how bad it is for younger people who grew up under all the dark influence of these things. I've had quite a few older ministers tell me that that the internet is fine, if you choose to look at porn, it's because your heart is in the wrong place, and they simply "know what they shouldn't be looking at". That's a rotten answer, and demonstrates a lack of care for what's happening to younger people.

I would have to agree with the respond that their 'heart is in the wrong place' and add they need to seek after the enabling power of the Holy Spirit to make right choices. I have a friend who struggled with peaking in on Internet porn occasionally and the solution for him was to quit his Internet involvement altogether. Sometimes the answer is to flee from areas of temptation. He moved on to a street ministry with drug and alcohol addicts in a big city.

I don't think rules is the answer to make Christians act Christ like but rather the need for the on-going filling of the Holy Spirit and living under His guidance and control. This still allows for church discipline in areas of 'in your face' sinning as was happening in the Corinthian church. They were just ignoring it and also sinning in other ways mis-treating other believers.